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I like that. A nice suit for the debonair Michael would be awesome. That is very stylish.
I want M5 to have the option of wearing Prada, Armani, Calvin Klein, and Burberry.
I think the problem with male clothes in 3D modeling is related to how the opposite sexes attract each other. Males are more visual and are easily gratified by looking at beautiful, sexy women. Women are attracted by a man's "presence" and a great cologne :)
which is something a computer cannot generate with a render.
I call shennanigans!
Women don't enjoy looking at handsome sexy men? Really? REALLY?
Mind, I'm not talking about anything more than visuals; actual attraction can include more than that for both men and women. But judging from comments on some of the images on my web page from people who would appear to be women, I'm pretty sure that women can be just as visual as men. And way back in the aulden days of yore (you know, about ten years ago in real time, BILLyuns and BILLyuns of years ago internet-time), I used to hang out on a particular email list that consisted of three men and a whole lotta women. It was really fascinating to see how they'd talk about men when they'd forget we were there. Y'all can be REALLY base, you know. Our delicate sensibilities were quite shocked!
By the by, I'm pretty sure the only way that kind of suit would work is if it were dynamic or hybrid, and Studio can't do hybrid. You'd also need more rigid areas for the shoulders, at least. (Can you have rigid or semi-rigid zones with dynamic clothing? I've never had anything that needed that, so I really don't know.)
I call shennanigans!
Women don't enjoy looking at handsome sexy men? Really? REALLY?
Mind, I'm not talking about anything more than visuals; actual attraction can include more than that for both men and women. But judging from comments on some of the images on my web page from people who would appear to be women, I'm pretty sure that women can be just as visual as men. And way back in the aulden days of yore (you know, about ten years ago in real time, BILLyuns and BILLyuns of years ago internet-time), I used to hang out on a particular email list that consisted of three men and a whole lotta women. It was really fascinating to see how they'd talk about men when they'd forget we were there. Y'all can be REALLY base, you know. Our delicate sensibilities were quite shocked!
By the by, I'm pretty sure the only way that kind of suit would work is if it were dynamic or hybrid, and Studio can't do hybrid. You'd also need more rigid areas for the shoulders, at least. (Can you have rigid or semi-rigid zones with dynamic clothing? I've never had anything that needed that, so I really don't know.)
Doesn't surprise me, of course. Though, it wouldn't hurt to try to find away to simulate the effect by other, more capable methods. For example, I found the approach to D5's Royal Punk to be rather interesting. The entire outfit itself is one object with various material zoned areas such as the coat, vest, pants, shoes, etc. Because of this, the outfit itself is very figure-complimentary while still maintaining the illusion of many pieces. Maybe if SickleYield & Marriah can make a Gen 6 business suit and tux set in something similar to that style, no only would it require less mesh to put together, but any add-on made with it will look less bulky and flow with the rest of the outfit more fluidly and realistically. After all, Isn't that what Genesis 2 supposed to be about?
I think poor Michael just needs clothing of every sort.
I wasn't thrilled with Royal Punk personally- not because it was not form fitting, but simply because it didn't have the realism I want in an outfit and it lacked versatility. I really couldn't mix and match the outfit with other stuff which is essential for a figure with as little wardrobe as the men.
In general I do not think there is a one sized fits all 'women find this attractive' or men 'like this' because we are all different.
What impresses me with a render, is not that an outfit can be hot and naked, because lets face it, that's easier to put together than a sexy modest outfit, do but the expression and mood of the scene. If you have a scene with a hot dude standing there with no shirt, its not particularly interesting beyond the 'oh, nice bod' factor. What is interesting to me is the mood and the story that is conveyed in an artistic level.
Doesn't surprise me, of course. Though, it wouldn't hurt to try to find away to simulate the effect by other, more capable methods. For example, I found the approach to D5's Royal Punk to be rather interesting. The entire outfit itself is one object with various material zoned areas such as the coat, vest, pants, shoes, etc. Because of this, the outfit itself is very figure-complimentary while still maintaining the illusion of many pieces. Maybe if SickleYield & Marriah can make a Gen 6 business suit and tux set in something similar to that style, no only would it require less mesh to put together, but any add-on made with it will look less bulky and flow with the rest of the outfit more fluidly and realistically. After all, Isn't that what Genesis 2 supposed to be about?
There are no circumstances under which I will voluntarily create an outfit as one merged object. If you like that method, buy from Oskarsson. I am in no way being sarcastic. He does some neat things.
And of course the discussion has died. If the thread's main brief on the topic is "gays aren't welcome, and women don't like things gays like, or if they do, they shouldn't," what else is there to be said?
Most people don't even know most homoerotic books are written by women.
Reading this thread, so far I didn't get the feeling gays weren't welcome.
Problem with this thread is that nothing very clear comes out of it. I've been watching it grow and die and couldn't even imagine how I could contribute. It went from Hunkwear to Punkwear LOL Both being soooo different. I bought most of your hunkwear but will probably never buy this Punkwear unless some weird project grows in my mind.
I am eagerly waiting for M6 and see if this guy will have a 'male' mesh. I am a Studio user but still stick most with M4 because the Genesis 1 male is so wrong in the crotch and tights area. We will then see if M6 gets more support.
Most people don't even know most homoerotic books are written by women.
Reading this thread, so far I didn't get the feeling gays weren't welcome.
Problem with this thread is that nothing very clear comes out of it. I've been watching it grow and die and couldn't even imagine how I could contribute. It went from Hunkwear to Punkwear LOL Both being soooo different. I bought most of your hunkwear but will probably never buy this Punkwear unless some weird project grows in my mind.
I am eagerly waiting for M6 and see if this guy will have a 'male' mesh. I am a Studio user but still stick most with M4 because the Genesis 1 male is so wrong in the crotch and tights area. We will then see if M6 gets more support.
I too am eagerly awaiting gen6 male. I admit to feeling disappointed that the next figure released will likely be girl 6... And not even gen 6 base male. Yes, I've heard that michael is usually not released anytime after vicky, but it doesn't HAVE to be that way.
That kind of suit works fine. And keep in mind, this was in the days of M4 and his frightening shoulders.
The main core of this topic is to figure out to get male clothing and support to sell better at DAZ 3D. The method that rings out more than any other is unfortunately sex. Women and their clothing always trump men and their stuff because most of the people who buy here are heterosexual men with fantasies and women with an appeal to physical beauty. This is superficially true in marketing in general. What I've been exploring post by post at a time is the various ways this could help influence a bit of a balance as far as 3D content can go here. The main bread and butter, of course would have to be hunkwear. I've provided many examples of male items that actually sold well in the men's department and suggestions of what that incorporate these sexualizing principals.
I'm actually NOT looking forward to G2M & M6. Of course I'll probably love the base and find ways to make it work for me, but I know I'm not going to enjoy it any more than I do Gn1 if it's not going to get a whole lot of clothing and textures. I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way, either. the trend of "women > men" needs to change if G2M is going to be successful.
If I might interject...
I should note that my best selling male outfits are not just fully covering, they are RIGIDLY fully covering - specifically, armors. The Celestial Armor is the best selling brokered outfit I have ever had, except for the Body Tank.
And my best selling outfit, period, is the Body Tank, which is possibly the MOST covering item in the DAZ store... http://www.daz3d.com/stellar-league-body-tank
I would argue that's partly because those are especially awesome more than anything gender-related.
And if I may further interject,
Godspeed did phenomenally. No question about that. I was full speed ahead to do more male stuff afterwards... til, Scorpion God released. While it wasnt my worst release evar, it wasn't good either.... in fact, it didnt even hit my average.
If its about sexy, then explain that one lol They are both sexy in the same exact way - bared chest, little skirt, headgear, weapon, poses, etc (only difference being one is Greek, and the other Egyptian)
One could say... well, Greek does better than Egyptian. And to that Id say orly??? Coz Serpent Goddess kicked major butt.... as well as Queen of the Nile (I have given this a ton of thought, can you tell? lol)
No one can really accurately predict the market. But the way it has always been, is that male stuff sells far less. I could speculate all day as to why (giving most credence to women buy female stuff to idealize them, whereas men for obvious sexuality reasons... whereas to the converse, hetero men arent interested in idealizing their own gender the way women do, the gay portion of the community may sexualize them and women don't entirely buy into sex, alone) But even that would be merely speculation.
Oh and one more thing.... DAZ is very open-minded when it comes to stuff... they are the most open minded religious types Ive ever known. Saying they're "conservatively" against anything remotely homosexual as far as products are concerned and refuse stuff based on that is really not the case lol Obviously, they don't want anything obtusely sexualized (as they do cater to many age groups) but that goes for either gender.
I think your Scorpian God was well done, but I didn't buy it because it is not my chosen genre: modern/futuristic/sci-f.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the product other than it being very niche and perhaps the promo makes it appear more of a monster-outfit than a cute guy outfit like godspeed.
If a person doesn't click on Scorpian god to see that it looks great on regular characters as well, they might pass that product up thinking it is only a mummy product.
With the exception of that last sentence (we'll get to that), I wouldn't disagree with you necessarily. At the moment, I suspect it's in part a vicious cycle. People don't see the items here, so they assume they're not welcome, because they don't see those items here. And the music goes round and round and it comes out here. So to speak.
And as far as not wanting anything obviously "sexualized" goes ... seriously, you're telling me that all those female barbarian/mage/warrior/whatever outfits that consist of breast cups and a panty/thong/whatever cut so low that no real adult woman could wear them without exposing herself are not obviously sexualized? Really? REALLY? Have you seen Martian Princess or War Vixen?
Yeah, I have considered that maybe doing the mummy promo wasn't the best way to go (even though I did do it on regular males for its add-on) I just figured the mummy was way more epic and something different. I like to switch it up that way lol
But Im not really complaining here. It is what it is, and there will always be flops when ur a vendor. I could surmise as to why it was all day long, on any of the flops Ive had... but Ill never really know for sure.
With the exception of that last sentence (we'll get to that), I wouldn't disagree with you necessarily. At the moment, I suspect it's in part a vicious cycle. People don't see the items here, so they assume they're not welcome, because they don't see those items here. And the music goes round and round and it comes out here. So to speak.
And as far as not wanting anything obviously "sexualized" goes ... seriously, you're telling me that all those female barbarian/mage/warrior/whatever outfits that consist of breast cups and a panty/thong/whatever cut so low that no real adult woman could wear them without exposing herself are not obviously sexualized? Really? REALLY? Have you seen Martian Princess or War Vixen?
Well ty for the compliments :) And yeah, it definitely could be part of it.
As far as conversions go, Godspeed would convert far better than Scorpy God (mostly due to the loin cloth on SG) But you would lose the articulation of the wings, which would be a huge deficit IMO. Ill eventually probably do a Genesis conversion on it... its on my list of things to do. Also, yeah, you can hide all the scorpions on Scorpy god, and the loin piece is optional.
As far as the examples you gave... I dont consider that obtusely sexual, actually lol It could be Im numbed to this, but for me, obtusely sexual would be what you can do with Serpent Goddess' bra (turn the cups off completely) or chaps without pants underneath, for example. Though, if it were up to me, I may have asked for a diff promo on the martian princess, coz the angle is a bit.. ahem... lol but still, her nibbly bits are covered, nevertheless. But all these items are within the confines of how society designs barbarian type women these days. Video Games, Movies, etc.... theyre all based on scant designs. Look at Red Sonja... and that was back in the 80s. People might not dig it, but it does sell like mad.
Yeah, I have considered that maybe doing the mummy promo wasn't the best way to go (even though I did do it on regular males for its add-on) I just figured the mummy was way more epic and something different. I like to switch it up that way lol
But Im not really complaining here. It is what it is, and there will always be flops when ur a vendor. I could surmise as to why it was all day long, on any of the flops Ive had... but Ill never really know for sure.
Hah! Well, I appreciate your enterprising spirit. And as you can see your Hot Godspeed outfit was a success.
I think the mummy thing is very creative. =-)
I actually think a well done western clothing/cowboy outfit would do well for Michael. Something realistic like HEath Ledger wore in BB mountain. You know jean jacket lined with Sherpa, etc. or like Marlboro GUy... Uh, Am I dating myself? Not like the fetish outfit for women released with Gia.
It could be useful as day to day clothing if you remove the hat, but would have sex appeal too.
If the purple parts of Martian Princess' bra cups aren't a separate material zone you can turn off, I will be genuinely shocked. (I'm also not buying it to find out.)
The fact that something sells like mad doesn't mean that it's not sexualized.
It might be worth clarifying terms here: are you talking about sexualized outfits or sexualized promos? Because, yes, DAZ will never be Renderosity where allowable promo images are concerned -- though Gia's Grecian Goddess promos walk right up to that line.
As far as outfits go ... it's rather difficult to argue that an outfit that consists of bra cups/bikini-style top and a loincloth/bikini-bottom thingie cut so that you can tell that she got a full Brazilian wax just yesterday (or didn't, as the case may be) is NOT sexualized. (Or, to continue the previous example, if you can tell that Gia isn't wearing anything remotely resembling a bra with Grecian Goddess, it's pretty obviously sexualized. The visible underbreastage is vitally important to the presentation of that outfit.)
And, to pull it back somewhere vaguely in the area of the topic, there are very few of that style of outfit for male characters. In part, as we've been able to see from this thread, because there seems to be very little agreement on what sorts of things would broadly be considered "sexy" for male characters, or what would sell if it was considered sexy. (I do in fact like DZheng's stuff, not just because I think it's sexy, but because it's also surprisingly flexible and combinable with other items. But I also think that it might not do well in the DAZ store, because it would be one hell of a culture shock.)
And, to pull it back even more on topic, there seems to be an amorphous, nebulous question embedded in this entire thread: if you could figure out what would be broadly considered "sexy", and you could get it into the store, AND it would sell, would it be enough to lift the entire category of male clothing as a whole? Again, right now, you've got a vicious cycle: the clothes don't sell as well, so they don't get made, so they're not there to buy, so they don't sell.
If the purple parts of Martian Princess' bra cups aren't a separate material zone you can turn off, I will be genuinely shocked. (I'm also not buying it to find out.)
The fact that something sells like mad doesn't mean that it's not sexualized.
It might be worth clarifying terms here: are you talking about sexualized outfits or sexualized promos? Because, yes, DAZ will never be Renderosity where allowable promo images are concerned -- though Gia's Grecian Goddess promos walk right up to that line.
As far as outfits go ... it's rather difficult to argue that an outfit that consists of bra cups/bikini-style top and a loincloth/bikini-bottom thingie cut so that you can tell that she got a full Brazilian wax just yesterday (or didn't, as the case may be) is NOT sexualized. (Or, to continue the previous example, if you can tell that Gia isn't wearing anything remotely resembling a bra with Grecian Goddess, it's pretty obviously sexualized. The visible underbreastage is vitally important to the presentation of that outfit.)
And, to pull it back somewhere vaguely in the area of the topic, there are very few of that style of outfit for male characters. In part, as we've been able to see from this thread, because there seems to be very little agreement on what sorts of things would broadly be considered "sexy" for male characters, or what would sell if it was considered sexy. (I do in fact like DZheng's stuff, not just because I think it's sexy, but because it's also surprisingly flexible and combinable with other items. But I also think that it might not do well in the DAZ store, because it would be one hell of a culture shock.)
And, to pull it back even more on topic, there seems to be an amorphous, nebulous question embedded in this entire thread: if you could figure out what would be broadly considered "sexy", and you could get it into the store, AND it would sell, would it be enough to lift the entire category of male clothing as a whole? Again, right now, you've got a vicious cycle: the clothes don't sell as well, so they don't get made, so they're not there to buy, so they don't sell.
Well Im talking in terms of promos... what DAZ is physically showing to the world. With transmapping, and enuff mtl zones, anything could be turned off and used for more erotic means... even a business suit lol I even cater to that crowd somewhat, as I put those options in (I just don't largely advertise it lol) And in terms of what they'd reject... they'd ask for a revise of promos, before they'd reject based on sexuality (unless there was obviously no way to make it less obtusely sexual, as I stated earlier... and again, it goes for either gender)
Also, you said "The fact that something sells like mad doesn't mean that it's not sexualized."
And yeah, what I meant was... the reason we see so many sexualized things, is coz it sells like mad. Its not always the case, but Id say 8 times out of 10, it is. Vendors make what sells. This is also the reason for the lack of male stuff. I know there's a portion of the userbase that cries out for more male stuff. But whenever we tend to do it, it tanks (Not always the case, but again, 8 times out of 10) Take myself for example. I actually love making male armor... it fits me better than anything, and Id do it all the time. But sadly, love doesn't pay my bills.
I would argue that's partly because those are especially awesome more than anything gender-related.
I would argue that "especially awesome" often equates to masculine sex appeal.
And that's why I think PA's really need to evaluate what exactly sells for them and what doesn't. If Godspeed sold phenomenally while Scorpion God flopped, then focus on more items like Godspeed. I do think part of Scorpion God's flaw was simply the way it was executed in the promos, as even vwrangler pointed out. Godspeed WAS very pretty and breath-taking for me while Scorpion God made me raise my eyebrows. It wasn't until I dug further in the promos was when I saw that, not only did it look interesting on a human male, but looked so much better in the pose demos with the scorpion tail turned off.
Presentation is very much in fact a huge key in making a product sell well. It's like I said when I pointed out H5's Night Out Suit. If you were to look at the promos for the actual Night Out Suit product page, it doesn't look very tantalizing by itself, but then you look at it in the way it was featured in the Capsces Poses Hiro 5 page with the impact from the texture coloring and how it's pose is presented, it becomes much more compelling and romantic.
When take that tactic and combine it with something that's actually quite suggestive, you get a pretty irresistible picture, literally! Most of the skimpware I actually have in my Runtime look good enough out of the box as is. Hell, one time I was scene building with a male friend over, he takes one look at my view pane the second I load the outfit unto my character and says "Damn! That's hot!" I turn to him with a look of amazement and say "Are you kidding me? I haven't even lit and posed her in it yet!"
And that's why I think PA's really need to evaluate what exactly sells for them and what doesn't. If Godspeed sold phenomenally while Scorpion God flopped, then focus on more items like Godspeed. I do think part of Scorpion God's flaw was simply the way it was executed in the promos, as even vwrangler pointed out. Godspeed WAS very pretty and breath-taking for me while Scorpion God made me raise my eyebrows. It wasn't until I dug further in the promos was when I saw that, not only did it look interesting on a human male, but looked so much better in the pose demos with the scorpion tail turned off.
Its all well and fine to dissect the promos on my product. But you forget one small little detail - Im not the only one that has said their male stuff tanked. In fact, many Vendors here have said that very thing.... including some very heavy hitting top PA's
Not to comment on any specific promo's but there are a lot in the store that do not show products off to their best advantage which means I for one won't buy it. Promo's for male products are sometimes really not that great.
I would be happy to give vendors feedback as to why I didn't buy their product. If something tanks, there is usually a reason, as I buy most adult male items that come into the store (I have no use for teens really or toons). I have yet to hear vendors really ask this question and I think they should. I'm sure it is painful for content to not well.
Not a lot of people come to daz to buy male orientated products. The perception and the reality is that the store sells female skimpwear only. Why would anyone come here to buy men's clothing if they can't get it? I still remember last Christmas's sale when every outfit being sold every day was for female characters except one, Adventure Hero, which was an improbable male short outfit, I've yet to use more than once or twice but bought anyway.
If I wanted to beef up the male line, and I were daz I'd commission it, I'm actually rather surprised daz doesn't have more artists on the payroll to make content that they own and sell.
Its all well and fine to dissect the promos on my product. But you forget one small little detail - Im not the only one that has said their male stuff tanked. In fact, many Vendors here have said that very thing.... including some very heavy hitting top PA's
Male items have always performed better for me than female items have. This is for a few reasons. One is that I don't care for doing girly items and tend not to do the same job on them, whereas I love doing male and androgynous outfits, so my heart and soul is in the work.
I submit that this is probably the reason for several male items selling poorly as well - I've seen artists that are incredibly talented when doing bikini armor turn in lazy work on male stuff that was clearly inferior to their female content. I am NOT saying this is always the case - many PAs have never done a bad product for either sex. I'm guessing they're not the ones who've had an item tank "because it was male," though.
There you have it. SY is KNOWN for her male clothing. As is Luthbel but many folks are KNOWN for doing female attire more than male attire. So perhaps the artists that are making the mostly female attire are attracting folks that ONLY use the female mesh figures for their work so when these artists are trying to do male clothing and not finding it to sell very well they get put off for lack of sales. I think part of the market comes down to what the artist/merchant started out doing the most of and attracting a client base that only buys that sort of stuff.
It's kinda like expecting Lucille Ball to do something other than comedy but when she does something serious no one bothers to watch it because it's not what they are used to seeing her do. Strange analogy but it's an example at least of what's been swirling around in my head all these years about market.
So Iggy, if you were to recreate yourself, using a different Avatar, handle and kept who you really were a secret, introduced a whole line of male clothing you might find the market would be kinder to your pocket book because you would be a new merchant introducing a whole new line to offer to the market.
I too prefer an androgynous look for female clothing- mosly because I do not really render sexy women- at least by intention. This is one of the reason it is a touch disappointing that gen 2 is separated by gender.
I think there needs to be a touch more quality control in store releases. Some of the new releases promo art, is very unappealing using bright primary colors, little textures and models with blank vacant eyes. If I were inclined to buy I lose interest when I see images of clothing that no human would wear worn by characters who don't look very good wearing it.
This is not directed at anyone here, but I glance at new releases regularly, and how a product are presented has a lot to do with whether I will buy.
Likewise, many of the older items get a pass from me, because there is only 1 screen image and that is not enough for me usually to make a buying decsision, expecially when the cost of the older item is usually high.
Also, I've had trouble fitting older content on newer models, or having it have the realism I crave. I'm a late adapter, so Genesis is my chosen model. I don't use M4/V4 or earlier, except if it can be autofit, so my need for content in that area is scant unless it converts well to genesis.
lol well that doesn't explain Godspeed selling phenomenally, which was my very first male outfit. There have been also other things... or even genres Ive done that I was never known for as well, that did phenomenally.
I don't think that really has much to do with it, in this case. At any rate, reinventing myself seems shady, over the top, and probably unnecessary lol (and my style is thus, I don't think I could feasibly hide my persona anyway) Lo, I may try another male outfit at some point again.... but it will probably be the last shot at one (unless it does well) And it definitely won't be Egyptian, either.
Try as we might, there is no real rhyme or reason to it. Sure, I can speculate all day it wasnt sexy enuff (despite the fact it matches Godspeed in sexiness) or it was the genre (despite female items of the same genre doing well) or the promos (despite it being rendered on human males, and even DAZ featured it that way on the bundle, which didn't do great either) or the fact I have a lot of female stuff (despite Godspeed doing well, and being my first) At the end of the day, I will never really know. I have moved on... when your a vendor, yeah its a bummer at first, but you quickly get over it and move onto the next. I just wanted to offer it as an example for you guys, so you could understand that its not always how you think it to be. And again... if you want male things, you gotta buy them. Vendors make what makes them money. And the lack of male stuff on DAZ, RDNA and even Rendo speaks volumes.