No more poser stuff?
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By the way, MrPoser.. I -love- the quote in your signature! LOL!
~Bluebird
Some objects also require a bit of rigging to work correctly, such as doors. Then there's the age-old problem of which version of Poser to make it compatible with, since some features aren't available in earlier versions. There's a reason V4 is still number 1 in the Poserverse and that's because of her compatibility.
You can test sales by not having support for one app, verses dual support and see the change in sales. If leaving off support would have a difference in sales, then the sales of the item would reflect that. As Bluebird3D mentioned, she released a set with no Poser support and she had excellent sales, even getting top seller status. Several Pas, including myself have released items with no Poser support to see the impact sales in comparison with those that do have the support, and we have generally seen the same things.
As a consumer, if I see a product that is Daz only, and I dig it, I get it and try my best to get it to work in Poser, so I would look like a Daz user, but I'm not at all. The exception being materials only Daz products. The export Poser .cr2 has been really simplified, and you don't have to go through the object export now. With Genesis 2 (particularly the male figure), the improvement was too much for me to ignore, so I installed Daz back on my computer. It still only gets used to export cr2's though, and I haven't had a problem with Genesis 2 in it yet. DSON is also much improved stability wise (at least the 64-bit version), so there's that.
I wouldn't say that, there are top quality creators creating only for poser also, DAZ isn't the be all, end all store. vendors like Maddelirium, Fabiana and StudioArtVartanian have products i want that are poser only with no DS support. Great thing for me is I have discovered that poser only content is easier to get working in DS than vice versa since it is usually shader/material related and that is an easy fix as opposed to file format related. I use Genesis and GF2 primarily and i still spend the same if not more outside of DAZ.
As a modeler and someone who has considered selling content for this community AND as someone that uses both products, I can see supporting DS more than poser if I had to focus on one simply because of the tech involved, bigger backwards compatibility and less hoops to jump thru.
Yeah I often look at some cool and well made products in other stores and saying it would be nice to be able to use that in DS but I found I got used to it quickly. I can see why places like YURDigital like selling OBJ's more than formatted for one particular program. ;)
poser isn't dead yet :lol:
it has wind dynamics, light attenuation, layered animation tools, walk designer, clothify.
No, not everyone owns Poser nor do they own the latest and greatest version. If DS Pro was not free does anyone honestly think everyone would own it or be using it?
I doubt it.
Will DAZ 5 when it's released be free? Some version of it will be free but will it be the top of the line Pro version? I'm not going to hold my breath.
As for DAZ, DS, SMS, and Poser there's one simple reality. DAZ is not going to tie it's development schedule to another companies timeline anymore than SMS is going to tie it's development schedule to DAZ's.
As a consumer, if I see a product that is Daz only, and I dig it, I get it and try my best to get it to work in Poser, so I would look like a Daz user, but I'm not at all. The exception being materials only Daz products. The export Poser .cr2 has been really simplified, and you don't have to go through the object export now. With Genesis 2 (particularly the male figure), the improvement was too much for me to ignore, so I installed Daz back on my computer. It still only gets used to export cr2's though, and I haven't had a problem with Genesis 2 in it yet. DSON is also much improved stability wise (at least the 64-bit version), so there's that.
But still, the test is more of "Do I not have to create poser files and make it compatible see the same sales". That's what we're seeing, Some items will not work in Poser if they weren't designed that way so they will only work in DS, though there will be exceptions. But it's really saying that the sales aren't affected if we don't make it Poser-compatible.
You can test sales by not having support for one app, verses dual support and see the change in sales. If leaving off support would have a difference in sales, then the sales of the item would reflect that. As Bluebird3D mentioned, she released a set with no Poser support and she had excellent sales, even getting top seller status. Several Pas, including myself have released items with no Poser support to see the impact sales in comparison with those that do have the support, and we have generally seen the same things.
Thank you very much for the answer to my question. I meanwhile think that you forget people like me who are Poser users and who also buy (should I say: "were buying..." ?) DS content that is not guaranteed to be working in Poser.
Do not get me wrong but the method to determine who uses what is apparently as empirical and approximate as the crystal ball or the coffee grounds.
Thank you though.
However, in order to stay competitive, you do have to provide a level of service to your customers where they feel comfortable knowing that they can get products they want. Like I said, both company took risks: one to provide a platform for characters and the other by refusing the tech. And this thread is the result of that action.
Thank you very much for the answer to my question. I meanwhile think that you forget people like me who are Poser users and who also buy (should I say: "were buying..." ?) DS content that is not guaranteed to be working in Poser.
Do not get me wrong but the method to determine who uses what is apparently as empirical and approximate as the crystal ball or the coffee grounds.
Thank you though.
Money talks. It's as simple as that. And we can see trends on our reports that say what people are buying. If you see the same amount of sales regardless of what support you provide, then it doesn't make sense to do the extra work, does it? So no it's not the same as coffee grounds or the crystal ball.
Personally, some may disagree with this statement but I tend to agree. It is a bit like reading tea leaves or something LOL I think the best gauge is those that are releasing a Poser and DS version of the same pack separate. I know some customers have been a bit unhappy with those doing this but I can get why. To me it is about the only way to gauge a merchants DS vs Poser Content sales and doing it for just one pack isn't enough either. You would need to do it for a few, do the math, and determine what difference if any there is and then also track the time it took you to do each version and work out whether you are taking a loss or making a gain by doing it.
Leaving support for one off or the other off a product to test may not be the best gauge (just my opinion mind you) as it may not be that "dropping Poser didn't make a difference" it could be that what you released was more popular, more well rounded, more multipurpose, or more appealing to the masses and that therefore influenced the lack of difference and the rise in sales and it may have done even better had there been a Poser version with it. Sadly, it introduces variables you can only guess about.
Much of this business is looking at numbers and making your best guesses as to why something did what it did (good or bad) and not always will you ever know or be able to account for what makes one thing sell over another.
Personally, some may disagree with this statement but I tend to agree. It is a bit like reading tea leaves or something LOL I think the best gauge is those that are releasing a Poser and DS version of the same pack separate. I know some customers have been a bit unhappy with those doing this but I can get why. To me it is about the only way to gauge a merchants DS vs Poser Content sales and doing it for just one pack isn't enough either. You would need to do it for a few, do the math, and determine what difference if any there is and then also track the time it took you to do each version and work out whether you are taking a loss or making a gain by doing it.
This. So much this. If you want a proper result, use a proper sample.
Thank you very much for the answer to my question. I meanwhile think that you forget people like me who are Poser users and who also buy (should I say: "were buying..." ?) DS content that is not guaranteed to be working in Poser.
Do not get me wrong but the method to determine who uses what is apparently as empirical and approximate as the crystal ball or the coffee grounds.
Thank you though.
Money talks. It's as simple as that. And we can see trends on our reports that say what people are buying. If you see the same amount of sales regardless of what support you provide, then it doesn't make sense to do the extra work, does it? So no it's not the same as coffee grounds or the crystal ball.
Yes, money, money, money... The answer is clearer and more appropriate. But the method to determine if you can get rid of Poser support is still shaky since you do not take all the factors into account.
I thought that money had no smell but for some people it seems that it either smells Poser of Daz Studio and it is deeply unpleasant.
I have thus put my purchases in standby because of this thread, ALL my purchases, the ones for items that are not Poser compatible and the other ones too...
Well, I bought DS4 before they made it free. I've also bought up through Poser Pro 2012 on the other side and will eventually pick up 2014 when I actually have a use for it. When I see a new feature or tool set that I like, that's enough to justify buying the new product. The thing to remember, however, is that by giving away DS4, DAZ made it possible to get almost all of of their customers on the same page, and that's what enabled them to really establish the Genesis tech.
And DAZ is a company that makes it's money selling content to be used in 3D programs. This is the Barbie model, where you give away the doll/software and make your money selling the accessories.
On the other hand, it's no secret that the majority of Poser users aren't using the current versions, and a huge percentage are using discounted versions. As a result, SMS' development of Poser has been glacially slow since they bought it in 2007, and with each new version they've put less and less effort into trying to establish a content market for the newer included figures. That leaves development in the hands of outside parties, and those folks aren't going to invest in figures that only a small fraction of the market is actually using. You can see how well that's going for Rex and Roxie, so, if anything, having the Poser legacy to support is a detriment to the development of new 3D content.
To be more specific, the real reason that Poser users are griping isn't because DAZ isn't making enough 3D content that works in Poser. Poser users are griping because NO ONE is making enough 3d content (of the kind that they, in particular, like) for Poser. After all, if there was tons of great Poser content everywhere, the lack of Poser-specific content here shouldn't make a lick of difference in the big picture, right? Follow the above chain to it's logical conclusion, and the problem is ultimately that SMS isn't supporting Poser to the extent that their user base would like... which is how DAZ's Gen 4 ended up on top of the Poser food chain rather than James and Jesse, or Mikki, or Simon...
Now, will DS5Pro be free? That depends on what new tech DAZ is trying to sell at that point, but my guess is that it will, or at the very least, be much, much cheaper, on a feature for feature basis, when compared to Poser. Because Smith Micro is a company that makes money by selling a program that you can use to manipulate 3D content, whereas DAZ is a company that makes money by selling 3D content.
Personally, some may disagree with this statement but I tend to agree. It is a bit like reading tea leaves or something LOL I think the best gauge is those that are releasing a Poser and DS version of the same pack separate. I know some customers have been a bit unhappy with those doing this but I can get why. To me it is about the only way to gauge a merchants DS vs Poser Content sales and doing it for just one pack isn't enough either. You would need to do it for a few, do the math, and determine what difference if any there is and then also track the time it took you to do each version and work out whether you are taking a loss or making a gain by doing it.
.
There really is no way to be completely accurate in the sales. This method also carries with it the inconsistencies of wheter a product is something people want, or it is a sales flop, or if there are similar sets in one or another version. Then also there is the thing where some customers may be flexible enough to convert their own content, so will just buy the one version or the other.
The only real gauge that we have is based on long term generalities of how our sales are doing.
Individual products are far too short of a spectrum to paint a clear picture.
Yes, the generality approach may not be completely accurate, but at least from it you get a vision of the curve the market takes. I release products quite regularly, so for me those long term statistics spell out a fairly clear track of how the market moves.
It may not be 100%, but we all can only work with the information we have, and gauge our decisions based on that.
Rawn
Well, I bought DS4 before they made it free. I've also bought up through Poser Pro 2012 on the other side and will eventually pick up 2014 when I actually have a use for it. When I see a new feature or tool set that I like, that's enough to justify buying the new product. The thing to remember, however, is that by giving away DS4, DAZ made it possible to get almost all of of their customers on the same page, and that's what enabled them to really establish the Genesis tech.
And DAZ is a company that makes it's money selling content to be used in 3D programs. This is the Barbie model, where you give away the doll/software and make your money selling the accessories.
On the other hand, it's no secret that the majority of Poser users aren't using the current versions, and a huge percentage are using discounted versions. As a result, SMS' development of Poser has been glacially slow since they bought it in 2007, and with each new version they've put less and less effort into trying to establish a content market for the newer included figures. That leaves development in the hands of outside parties, and those folks aren't going to invest in figures that only a small fraction of the market is actually using. You can see how well that's going for Rex and Roxie, so, if anything, having the Poser legacy to support is a detriment to the development of new 3D content.
To be more specific, the real reason that Poser users are griping isn't because DAZ isn't making enough 3D content that works in Poser. Poser users are griping because NO ONE is making enough 3d content (of the kind that they, in particular, like) for Poser. After all, if there was tons of great Poser content everywhere, the lack of Poser-specific content here shouldn't make a lick of difference in the big picture, right? Follow the above chain to it's logical conclusion, and the problem is ultimately that SMS isn't supporting Poser to the extent that their user base would like... which is how DAZ's Gen 4 ended up on top of the Poser food chain rather than James and Jesse, or Mikki, or Simon...
Now, will DS5Pro be free? That depends on what new tech DAZ is trying to sell at that point, but my guess is that it will, or at the very least, be much, much cheaper, on a feature for feature basis, when compared to Poser. Because Smith Micro is a company that makes money by selling a program that you can use to manipulate 3D content, whereas DAZ is a company that makes money by selling 3D content.
+1
If the next version of DS is not free, i would buy it, especially since i know what it can do and what I can expect after using it. I have bought 3 versions of carrara and bought 4 versions of Poser. But as pointed out, there will probably need to be a free version also so that all DS users are on the same page with the current tech.
I agree on poser figures also, if there were some great poser only figures, I would definitely be using my latest version of poser a heck of a lot more. I was a big fan of Miki 1 and really hoped that figure would mature along the same lines of the DAZ figures, but alas, that was not the case.
There really is no way to be completely accurate in the sales. This method also carries with it the inconsistencies of wheter a product is something people want, or it is a sales flop, or if there are similar sets in one or another version. Then also there is the thing where some customers may be flexible enough to convert their own content, so will just buy the one version or the other.
The only real gauge that we have is based on long term generalities of how our sales are doing.
Individual products are far too short of a spectrum to paint a clear picture.
Yes, the generality approach may not be completely accurate, but at least from it you get a vision of the curve the market takes. I release products quite regularly, so for me those long term statistics spell out a fairly clear track of how the market moves.
It may not be 100%, but we all can only work with the information we have, and gauge our decisions based on that.
Rawn
You say: "Yes, the generality approach may not be completely accurate...".
For me that method is not "not completely accurate" it is not at all accurate.
It is a bit like when there is a demonstration,. The organisers tell that that fifty thousands demonstrators took part to the demonstration. On the other side the authorities say that there were forty-eight thousands demonstrators. I really have no idea of who is right or wrong just as with that method used to determine whose money is smelling Poser or DS.
For me it is a choice from the seller and nothing else because while there are Poser users who buy from you, a poser support should exist. It is just provocative to say that it is too cumbersome to make Poser files because the amount of Poser users is not important enough...
And the Poser users who spend money in your store, have you thought about them? It seems to me that the answer is "NO".
Well...I am not here to argue the point...all I can do is explain the circumstances around the decisions being made.
You seem to be missing the point of economics 101. You seem to expect a vendor to create poser files as long as there is at least 1 person using poser files regardless of if they lose money on the deal or not, that is ridiculous. Loyalty is one thing, starving and homeless is quite another.
I develop addons for a game community with several different versions of the game. It has gotten to the point that the company I produce for and a few others have stopped development for the previous version of the game since the return on the investment in materials and time creating for both versions creates a negative money flow. Now all the developers i know in that community want to support all users, but those that are relying on the income to feed their family can't justify it, which makes perfect sense.
I think a point is getting lost here. If say 5 Poser users jumped at the chance to buy my product (which equals about say $20.00) but it takes me even a week to do the Poser support...then I literally would have just lost somewhere around $380.00 by including Poser support and that is not including if I don't own Poser and had to buy it to then put in said support. Then the loss is even more. Needing to gauge losses doesn't mean you care nothing about those you may let down by making your choice. It just means you have to do what is best for your family/livelihood and those sorts of decisions are not easy to make at all and how hard they are varies from merchant to merchant based on their personal circumstances. Some merchants literally cannot afford to do dual support on their items and many of them who had to make that choice didn't do so lightly or easily.
Truth be told we've (PA wise) discussed the ins and outs many many times (my husband and me) Do we go Poser Only? Do we go DS Only? Do we keep trying to support both. Can we afford to keep supporting both. At the moment for us, we have decided to keep going with both apps because we personally can. That isn't the case for every merchant. This isn't a business of "if one can do it than they all can". For some that is just not possible. It doesn't make a merchant cruel or inconsiderate to choose, as a merchant you are bound to making tough tough decisions each and every pack. It's part of the business and not one of the funner ones might I add.
Reversed that is quite like the experience of DAZ Studio users in about every other store out there ... and DAZ Studio is free, so the initial financial hurdle is at least lower.
And of course it is a choice of the seller, in the end most PAs will do what gets money into their pockets - it is a profession for most after all, no charity.
Dawn might not have been the best figure out there to use to make that point, lol, because I don't have the very newest Poser (I use PP2012) and I can use her just fine, but yes, the point is well made.
Conversely, the point is well made about DSON Importer: I've never had a problem with it. It's worked flawlessly for me, but apparently a lot of others have for reasons I simply can't explain and don't care to get in over my head and try.
I can and will say that I simply will not buy a product that doesn't have Poser companion files, and so I've missed out on some really great stuff here on Daz that I really liked for that reason, and I have stuff I've purchased that's still unusable to me because it doesn't have companion files because I switched from Daz to Poser about a year ago.
As a customer who buys from many of you who've posted here in this thread (and SickleYield and Rawn are two of my favorite vendors, tbh), I understand you. I fully understand the need to pay your mortgage and feed your families, and I appreciate what you do. But the reason I've moved away from Daz, technology or not, can be best summed up as money. Prices have gone up pretty dramatically (this new shader thing is an example; Dragon 3--which is a big cost increase over what I paid for the last dragon and got more included...I'm buying the bare minimum of Dragon 3 today, I'm not buying any addons besides the basic textures and morphs even though I love SickleYield's morphs because as a disabled vet on a fixed income, I simply can't afford it because I too have rent and other bills to pay and what I'm buying for the bare minimum to use it is costing $65-ish ON SALE), and I just can't afford the pricing anymore, even at 30% off. I understand fully that Daz in a business and that all of you are businessmen and women that have families to house and feed. But I honestly can't afford the new way of doing business at Daz, where it seems to me that some things which used to be included in items are now parted out and sold piecemeal for more money (some textures, morphs, shaders)--and they sometimes get a little pricey.
So you see, it's money on both sides, unfortunately. Do I wish more things had Poser CF? Yeah, I do. Because if they did, I'd make more effort to spend my money at Daz. But I do understand your point as vendors that it's a huge pain in the... render engine... to create the files and/or support Poser for little or no return.
My beginning wasn't meaning I thought one way or another was like reading tea leaves but that all of it is a guessing game. I just thought the one way may be a bit better (if looked at over multiple packs) Gauging anything based on sales is kinda like reading tea leaves. LOL In general the very nature of sales introduces so many variables that there is no way to get a clear picture. I just thought the one way was a bit more accurate since you are comparing the same product and doing so at least a few times so it would also balance out promotions running, and remove the "different packs" variable and the like but really that wouldn't be my main way to gauge (by sales I mean) in general. We base most of our choices by time and averages honestly.
Dawn might not have been the best figure out there to use to make that point, lol, because I don't have the very newest Poser (I use PP2012) and I can use her just fine, but yes, the point is well made.
He's using Dawn because the Poser version requires P9/PP2012 or higher as she uses Poser's weight mapping. V4 isn't weight mapped at all (at least not by default).
Reversed that is quite like the experience of DAZ Studio users in about every other store out there ... and DAZ Studio is free, so the initial financial hurdle is at least lower.
And of course it is a choice of the seller, in the end most PAs will do what gets money into their pockets - it is a profession for most after all, no charity.
Rent's gotta be paid, cats gotta be fed.
And about something icprincess said earlier -
DAZ makes money on content sales. Period. Charging for their program would, at this point, hurt content sales. I don't expect DS 5 to cost money either. I don't know if you remember, but some of us paid quite a lot for a Pro version of (4? I think it was 4) and then it went free because that decision proved not to be viable. I don't think they're liable to make that mistake again, especially when it will lump then in with their main competitor (Smith Micro makes their money on app sales, not content sales; they own neither Renderosity nor HiveWire nor RuntimeDNA).
Right now you can pay $500 for a new Pro version of Poser, a little less if you get it on sale, or you can use the terrible 32 bit versions for $60 to $250. Or you can get DAZ Studio for free with full creation tools and 64 bit support. I don't think they're going to give up the influx of new users that this dichotomy causes.
The only reason that I haven't used DSON Importer for Poser 9 is that I have heard DSON Importer is slow to load Genesis. I'll try it after I buy my new computer though.
Loading is quicker now in newer versions of DSON, but some Poser users have been experiencing crashes when using certain Poser scripts while there's a DSON character in the scene (for instance, if you have Genesis/Genesis 2 in the scene, don't even think about using a script-based camera change-- yowzer- the default camera switching work fine though).
What I personally did for G2F, was export a few CR2's out of DS, PMD enabled for morphs. One with her own mapping, and one with V4's mapping. From there, I pull her into Poser, set her to Unimesh w/ subD of 1. I use Dimension3D's free Gen4 to G2F Mat Converter (DS script- I've messaged him regarding a Poser Python version) and can then use my V4-based mc6/pz2's on G2F right within Poser without the need for the importer at all (all of the notes about her only accepting DUF is a load of crap, once you change the surface names in the mat file, you can use any type). You do have to copy the torso mat to the ears, but you have to do that in DS too. From there, run her through EzSkin and voila.
But they DO own Content Paradise, where they broker a lot of product for the DAZ figures. :)
But they DO own Content Paradise, where they broker a lot of product for the DAZ figures. :)
That's right, I forgot them because I don't shop there. :D I quit because at the time they didn't appear to do any QA or testing - I would buy a .cr2 animal and it would have the .obj in the library area so that none of the files could be moved.