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Community projects here have come and gone almost on a regular schedule, but they never quite get off the ground. And I think the reason is clear....a lot of people like the *thought* of a cool video being produced by the members, but when it comes down to the practical aspects of actually DOING it, it becomes too much like work. It requires a strong leader and vision and consensus and teamwork and a bunch of other stuff that's definitely no fun. Not much different from professional projects. But most folks are here to play with software, and aren't really attuned to focusing on a difficult project and making it happen.
Which isn't to say that a community video here will never happen. It's just, IMO, about as likely as seeing a pig fly in your window and handing you a winning lottery ticket. :) :) :) :)
I read you Joe, but what do you think will help people move beyond the cool thought to taking some cool action? Is there any way to find a strong leader to drive the process? Is it possible to build vision and consensus and teamwork and all that other stuff that's not fun? What's the magic word that will make a pig fly in through the window, with a winning lottery ticket too, because I think it would need some funding if it's going to be truly awesome.
I think it can be done, because people already put in a lot of thought, time and effort into the experiments, WIP etc that they share here, if that energy was concentrated by a handful of people for about six months on one project, that might be all it takes to put something great out there.
Well, I don't know if there's a magic word that will make it happen. We had a strong leader last time in Rashad, but things just never materialized. Personalities always get in the way... :) :) :)
We had those who firmly felt their ideas were the best, and went off in a huff if their ideas weren't used. And actually I think we lost a few forum members after that episode...
And then there were those, such as me, who stood on the sidelines and took pot shots, saying it would never get off the ground. Which it didn't... :) :) :)
And then there were those who just didn't want to take the time cuz it wasn't what they were interested in doing.
And then there were those who were only interested in doing one small aspect of the project (even if that aspect wasn't needed) and they went off on their own and chased that which really interested them.
I guess you could say it was like herding cats. :) :) :) :) :)
Since nobody was obligated to take one part of the project and see it through to completion, it was tough getting folks to do that.
The reason why it works in a professional environment is because you have a leader who has some sort of clout (line an employer or supervisor) and can get people to do stuff even if they might not want to. It's hugely more difficult when it's volunteers who all have varied interests and schedules and sense of responsibility and commitment.
Apart from being truthful about sitting on the sidelines, taking pot-shots and generally pouring cold water on the enthusiasm, what Joe writes is nothing like what actually transpired. Ideas were kicked around, no-one took overall control, or tried to force their ideas on others. No-one went off on a tangent in a huff, or anything like that at all. No drama whatsoever. .
Rashad, who had barely opened Carrara at that point, was appointed by Joe as the leader and promptly vanished from the scene.
Then mmoir tried to get it going by proposing a very simple "starter" to get folks into the idea of working together. The modelers among us produced the goods within days, but there were no takers from the animators, colorists, lighting experts, etc. Why? Probably because it was a Carrara-rigged figure and our animators only work with canned animations, which don't suit Carrara-rigged figures. It simply fizzled out due to apathy
A small community project can get off the ground, without all the drama. Way back when head wax and myself were on the Anim8or forum, we used to produce a community project 10-minute animation once a year, plus a short Christmas special, as well as 2-minutes animation challenges once a month and had great fun doing it. Everything was home-made, no pre-made content allowed. Turned out pretty crappy, but it was ours!
The way it worked was that one guy would come up with the story line and we would each say what we could contribute, then went about doing it, no fuss, because we were all modelers, battling to come to terms with animation. We sent our contributions in from all around the world, be it models or short animations that one guy would edit into something vaguely approaching the original story line.
It is do-able, but I'm afraid I must agree with Joe - it's highly unlikely that it will ever happen. The Carrara user base has changed quite substantially over the years, to the point that it is now virtually used as a stills render engine plugin for DS. One never sees the animations, SFX, landscapes, etc. we used to see more of than "content", which was almost a swearword here a few years ago.
Even the nature of the questions has changed - it used to all be about how Carrara worked, now it's all about how to morph and pose G2F without tearing it apart and how to get stuff rendered in any other application but Carrara:)
Maybe if it were in a South African accent? ;-P
Or maybe it has less to do with leadership, and more to do with getting paid? PIXAR guys don't come in and spend 18 hours a day working on a project because they love Uncle Walt....
Everybody forgets Sintel had a budget. From what I read, some people were actually paid for their time. I know it sounds mercenary, but sometimes it comes down to time and money. If time is tight, then you have to have something to motivate you to take time from one area of your life and spend it in another. If it is something you're passionate about, then financial considerations may not matter as much. If you're on the fence about it, as I was for the last project, then there's not much motivation to sacrifice my time- particularly if it were taking time away from the few paying jobs I actually get with Carrara and video editing.
Pre-canned animation you say? Only pre-rigged DAZ characters?!? Blasphemy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd6XKMB5Cv8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fJXNNmN9V0
I've only experimented with Aniblocks, BVH files and motion poses. They're far to limiting for my use. The reason I couldn't work on the last project was mostly time and I wasn't that passionate about the project. I had two paying video jobs on deck, plus a community theatre project. It wasn't at the top of my priority list plain and simple.
For what it was worth, I was rooting for you guys, and if it hadn't fizzled out before my other projects were done, I may have tried to help out.
Ah the CCMP!! It comes up from time to time and I think it is because to many of us (myself included) it still feels like unfinished business.
I'm not sure whom you are referring to for vanishing. If you are referencing Joe, I think that he had decided at the time to take a break from the forums as a whole. I think he felt it was the right thing to do at the time and I know it wasn't an easy decision for him. But as you see, he is back now.
If you were referring to me then please allow me to apologize. I did not intend to abandon the project or the participants. I suspect that what I considered to be time taken to make sense of things might have seemed from the outside like I had withdrawn involvement. That was not the case at all. But more on that in a moment.
I'm very glad you mentioned this as well. There are a couple of things I'd like to address and/or clarify.
From my perspective. The first step was to generate interest in the project from a community that was somewhat low in morale. For that we had open script submission threads where we collected ideas from the community and voted on them like civilized adults. The purpose of that process was to find a net that could "snare" as many community members as possible. We had several good story ideas, and in the end after extended voting periods we had a final choice. Some people fell off the moment the final script was decided on because it wasnt one they supported, but most remained on board.
The next step was to structure a hierarchy and a production plan for the project. This is usually the time when the budget (if there is one) tends to determine the manner in which the tasks will be carried out. Typically, the greater the importance of a given aspect the more funding it receives, and vice versa.
For someone in my position, a clear vision was essential. My lack of experience with Carrara meant several things
1. Due to my lack of technical knowledge about Carrara, I had to depend entirely on the recommendations of my advisers. While my advisers did a great job, without some degree of insight of my own to compare it with it was difficult to feel confident I was making the right choices. Simply deciding on the aesthetic, how will it look in terms of style, lighting, texturing. How can I determine how we should light the scene if I am not certain how long the renders for each frame will take? I might have one idea about these things, but then my advisers tell me something else. If two advisers had opposing views, I had no idea whose advice to give precedent.
2. Due to may lack of technical understanding of Carrara, I was unable to provide any self-made examples of the points I was trying to make. Often, to get the point across one needs to provide a template or an actual example. I should have been able to light a few scenes myself, test out the render speed myself, optimize them myself, so I could show the team how to continue my example and get other scenes completed. But instead, I had to wait and hope that one of my advisers might somehow randomly come up with the look I had in mind with render times that were acceptable.
3. And so because I could not participate directly in any of the technical stuff, it meant that I was relegated to being the guy who says yes and no, but who doesn't offer anything artistic to the project. This project required more. I needed to propose ideas not just make choices
I think that MMoir was doing something good by proposing the smaller project, but I think it was too late to go backward which is what it equated to. What we have to remember is that a lot of effort went into getting the initial storyline about the alien visitors scoping out different locations on Earth. The mini project was never vetted the way the main project was. People who had signed on for the main project might not have wanted to play along for the mini project. I think it would have been smarter to actually complete a smaller section of the original script than to propose an entirely new one because it made it look like we were totally scattered, and had no direction (which we didnt...the irony huh!) The mini project might have actually served to divide and splinter the focus somewhat. Lesson learned. Next time start small and stay that way. Or if you're going to start big, stay big. Switching philosophies down the line can cost you the loyalty of your followers, even if it is the only choice that seems available.
I would have loved to have made both projects. The mini one looked like a great deal of fun, but alas, I think it was too late.
We all know that without money, only loyalty can get the job done. We all knew the chances for survival of a project like this were minimal. I think most members of the community wanted to "wait and see" if the project got off the floor, assuming that if some real momentum got going then maybe they would eventually get involved. I don't blame them.
And that brings us full circle to the present day. For me the CCMP is not dead. So far no one has come along to take it over, so I guess it will still have to be me. But the difference is that next time, I will have my own Carrara relevant opinions and techniques. I will be able to show inspiring examples of what I am looking for and that clearer vision will make everyone's participation feel more meaningful.
Hopefully, we can use the new Octane plugin. I've been considering some space ship models for the various teams that visit Earth. One of the locations we had discussed was a tropical environment, one that my Volcanic Archipelago study can be used for. I could almost start today rendering footage for it if the project were active right now. By the time I am ready to bring this to the community I will already have a few minutes of footage rendered which should serve as a strong inspiration and artistic vision to get people back on board.
This business shall not remain unfinished.
Hey Guys,
Rashad, hopefully my mini project didn't scatter the focus of the main CCMP project, maybe it did I don't know . From what I remember the project was sort of stalled(nothing was happening) so I thought getting the community members to do something simple together like the Easy Come Easy Go project was a good idea. I just wanted people to actually start to do things,( model , make concepts sketches etc.) and there was participation in several areas which was good.
I only envisioned this mini project to last a month or so to create so it wouldn't detract too much from the main CCMP. This didn't work out which is too bad.
I am open to any restarts or new animation endeavors with carrara but I do think starting small and actually completing an animation(even if the final animation is very low quality ) is very,very important. We as a community just need to complete something and move on from there.
I do hope something else gets started or the CCMP gets new life , I will definitely help out.
Mike
I guess I completely missed out on this back when. I disappeared into semi-lurker mode for quite a while (over a year?) when the daz forums decided they hated me and wouldn't let me log in to see them. Eventually I was able to get back in, but there was a long time where I might as well have been banned. I could buy from the store ok, but God help me if I wanted to try to see what was going on in the forums, my username/password was just not good enough.
Eventually whatever the glitch was passed, and nowadays I'm back out of lurker mode, but somehow missed this entire project.
Spaceships and tropical scenes? Sounds great! :) What was the basic plot going to be? (you had me at 'spaceships' :) )
(I'm one of those who has Octane, if it matters, so maybe I can play a part. And I also know how to composite animated Carrara dynamic hair into an Octane animation now, muhahaha...)
Nice job on the cat animation and particle test.
So, you are going to be handling all the rendering for the new project then. :-) I don't have Octane but it looks nice(I have a radeon card) and I liked your hair tuts.
Thanks. I'm not totally happy with it, but I did model and rig the cat from the ground up. I even added a few simple morphs. It taught me that I have a long way to go before I have a fully developed character.
The new Octane 3 coming out later this year has OpenCL support. Octane will run on Radeon cards just fine in a few months, but not yet today. Perhaps if we decide to restart it and we decide on an aesthetic that agrees with Octane, then we could do most or all of it in Octane and Lux. But even if we did use external rendering engines, I'd still want at least some part (no less than 1/3) to be rendered with Carrara native, as the point of the project is to highlight Carrara as well as its plug-ins.
Graduations on the way, then the vacations of the summer time. I wonder if people have the 6-18 hours a week that would be needed from at least half a dozen individuals just to get prototypes and samples done. Once we got everything storyboarded and the shot angles aligned we could then port out the various parts of the movie to community members for the final rendering.
For a short 2 minute movie, at a mere 24fps is going to cost us 2,880 individual frames. A five minute movie will cost us 7,200 frames. Someone will have to composite all of this, another area I do not have any experience in myself. Determining document resolutions is a major consideration.
All said, we might still not be quite there yet. But I think we are getting there.
I was kind of hoping at the time, that with my "it'll never happen" attitude towards the project, it would galvanize the forum members into a powerful team, ready to work tirelessly together to produce an AWESOME product just to "prove Joe wrong". But even that didn't work... :) :) :)
Which is the main reason why I really don't expect pigs to fly and deliver a winning lottery ticket. :) :) :) If that doesn't bring Carrara forum members together, nothing will.... :) :)
Possibly you are overestimating your influence to galvanize folk to prove you wrong - possibly the reaction is simply ho-hum, him again?
How about taking a positive lead, with all your vast experience in the industry you could be a great asset to the project?
Rashad must have taken the discussion further off-forum with a small chosen group, because I don't recall there ever being any "advisers" disagreeing on approaches. The suggestion of using Octane will bring exclusivity to what was intended as a community effort.
When mmoir brought up the "Easy come, easy go" idea, the original spaceship concept was totally dead in the water (unless it was being worked on by an exclusive group) - there was no splitting and and distraction of the community. In fact, more positive results came from that than from the original idea.
This whole thing is being over-thought - we, as a community don't need to produce a stunning, mind-blowing Hollywood blockbuster - not without some serious funding. Come up with a simple storyline, decide what props are needed, who will make/supply them and get on with it!
Heh, I wondered who you were talking to Roy, then I realised I have Joe on ignore and his post didn't show ;)
Which is why I never put anyone on ignore - I'm far too curious:)
Who are you responding to now??? ;-)
No-one specifically I love you all and find you all interesting ;-P
Who are you responding to now??? ;-)
to be honest I tried putting myself on 'ignore' but , because I was by far the most interesting and intelligent poster on the forum, it seemed that I was losing a lot of insights into just how wonderful I really am, so, with much reluctance, I unignored myself and suddenly the world was a better place ;)
to be honest I tried putting myself on 'ignore' but , because I was by far the most interesting and intelligent poster on the forum, it seemed that I was losing a lot of insights into just how wonderful I really am, so, with much reluctance, I unignored myself and suddenly the world was a better place ;)
:-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol::-):lol:
Er.....trying to animate my laughter with smileys in case y'all are wondering! ;-)
Edit: didnt exactly work, did it?
to be honest I tried putting myself on 'ignore' but , because I was by far the most interesting and intelligent poster on the forum, it seemed that I was losing a lot of insights into just how wonderful I really am, so, with much reluctance, I unignored myself and suddenly the world was a better place ;)
I couldn't have said it better about myself! ;-)
yes it's obvious to me with the involvement of such great minds as mine, Roygee's, Evil's and Dada's, Dart's, Stezza's, Wendy's et al et al et al just to mention a few because my fingers are hurting from typing, Carrara has a very bright future ahead of itself....
unless it get's too far ahead of itself, then Daz will have to cull it because people wont want the free Studio any more ;)
Evil, I was thinking of you when I wrote it. Who else on this forum could fit that description? ;)
That's funny... :) :) :) :)
Oh, wait, were you serious??
I think with only a small amount of reflection you'll realize that there is probably not one person on the face of this planet who would be a more negative "asset" to a Carrara forum project. Although with all of the "ignore" buttons that have been pushed for me, maybe nobody would even know I'm involved... :) :) :) :)
Ignore is the greater part of ignorance :)
And I am serious - you have a great deal to contribute, if you take a positive view.
My dear wife has this great philosophy - if you have a choice between being right and being kind, choose kind. It makes you and all those around you feel so much better :)
And of course she's right...
Although for those in the professional world under tight deadlines and with lots of money riding on performance, often you MUST be right, and "kind" has to take a back seat. But usually the professional people around you know that, and they also value the need to be right, and understand who you are even though the circumstances at the time might not seem the kind-est....
Actually it's a lot easier managing a team under those circumstances. OTOH, managing a Carrara forum team, for someone like me, borders on impossible. I want to do it right, everyone else only wants to do it "kind". :) :) :)
I think Holly described it best when she advanced her leadership philosophy at the time of the movie project. Basically, it was do whatever you want, no rules, and whatever happens happens. We're just having fun.
That's not something I can even comprehend, much less manage. :) :) :) :)
Hence my comparison to "herding cats". :) :) :)
Great points. A couple of things I wanted to expand upon.
It wasnt dead, just slow moving, which looks practically the same. All of the results were positive, there has yet to be a single negative outcome from the project in any way. The splitting of the community was evidenced in the fact that we never managed to get the easy come and go concept completed which surprised me
Mike (MMoir) as one of the department heads (production I think but now I cannot recall exactly) was doing exactly what his title demanded by suggesting the Easy Come and Go project. It was a smart suggestion indeed. I take no issue with it, I am merely acknowledging that for those whose involvement was already marginal, a switch in theory after all the previous hype about the original concept might have been enough to push them away from the project all together.
There was something of a chosen group. There were departments and there were leaders assigned for each department. We did discuss some things in private emails, but the process was generally quite transparent for the obvious reasons of community involvement. Looking back I think we might have assumed that those leadership assignments from the full project would carry over to the Easy come easy go concept with the same level of dedication, but based on what you yourself observed, it seemed only the modeling team managed to fully adopt the Easy come concept. Lighting, rendering, those guys didnt seem as clear on the vision for it. It may even be at this point where Joe might have observed people experiencing some degree of unspoken tension. But I would blame that on my inept leadership more than anything else.
These projects needs to stay very small, a minute or so and maybe there is a chance of us pulling it off. I like bigger ideas, but I understand they are not often feasible.
For those who don't recall. We eventually decided on a storyline where a group of aliens suddenly arrive on a large mother ship orbiting Earth. The mother ship then dispenses a group of smaller ships (probes) which then start heading down to the planet. Each probe travels to a different part of the planet and observes different structures and life forms. The idea was to show off how many incredible looking environments you could create in Carrara, from Alps, to tropics to undersea. After each of the probes had collected their data the probes were to return to the mother ship before going back into some wormhole or something to continue collecting data on other livable planets. End scene
The space ship concept was ideal in that it allowed groups to tell any number of mini-stories they wanted. One person could do a story about one of the alien probes visiting the alps while someone else would do an alien visiting underwater. By treating it as several smaller movies later combined into a larger one, we had digestible pieces that when isolated are no more complicated than the Easy Come and Go. But what both projects big and small lacked was the hands on participation of the person in charge...me. That's why I am suggesting that if I get the whole thing started. maybe I'd render the space ship and the probes traveling to Earth, that it might get people warm again. or even the Easy come and Go. I could start rendering some of that. It''s more about getting something to show the rest of the team.
And that's my point, and why I think it's so very difficult to have success with a project like this in an environment like this. It has nothing to do with the leadership, it has very much to do with the fact that EVERYONE involved is there voluntarily, and even more importantly, REMOTELY.
The fact that everyone here is nothing more than a screen name makes obligation and responsibility virtually non-existent and meaningless. People can drop off a project in a heartbeat for no reason at all.
Even in normal, "in-person" volunteer organizations, the fact that everyone is interacting with each other in person, and knows each other, and maybe knows your friends and associates, makes it FAR more difficult to drop out. But on the internet, a "community" is virtually non-existent. There is no community, no obligation, no personal interaction....it doesn't exist.
So IMO, projects like this are virtually impossible unless you get very lucky and find the right group with the right attitude and resources and interests. Often that means volunteer professionals that are doing it for their own education or demo reels or whatever.
And BTW, the other hugely important aspect of the fact that this is all via internet is that it allows people to take any interactions on a very shallow basis. You can only read what people write, and if you don't know the real person, it's very easy to assume the worst and misread things.
But if you are in person, on a team together, it's a lot easier to go out after work and have a beer or whatever and become friends. Professionals realize that the needs of the professional environment require different people and attitudes than in a personal environment.
But on the internet, it's EXTREMELY easy for people to misread and misunderstand and assume the worst and take everything personally. And as a result, jump ship for the slightest of reasons.
I just had a funny thought....
Headwax proudly announced how he has me on ignore, as I'm sure many others do...
Now, can you imagine if I was managing a visual effects team and we were operating on a strict deadline, and it was not an option that we miss our deadline to produce, say, the next great animation from Disney. And lets say I was the supervisor, and Headwax was a compositor.
And lets say that our part of the production had to be finalized by tomorrow. And I ask Headwax, "Hey, Head, are you done yet?". And Headwax replies, "Huh, who are you? I've had you on ignore for the last 8 months".
Not good. It's fine if you're playing in an internet forum, but in the real world you have to learn how to deal with people, even if you *think* you don't like them.