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That's where literally every single visual artist (animators, comic creators, et al) is these days.
I asked a friend of mine, who has worked as an FX Technical Director for a number of the majors and is currently at Dreamworks where he has worked on many of their major 3D productions as an FX artist, what his take was on this debate. This is what he had to say:
These are the movies he has on his demo reel:
The Penguins of Madagascar
How To Train Your Dragon2
The Croods
Rise of the Guardians
Puss In Boots
Kung Fu Panda 2
How To Train Your Dragon
Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs
Body of Lies
Speed Racer
Beowulf
Spider Man 3
Open Season
Zathura
Bewitched
The Polar Express
The Haunted Mansion
X-Men 2
Karate Dog
Baby Geniuses 2
Doctor Doolittle 2
How The Grinch Stole Christmas
The Hollow Man
Vendetta
Star Trek, Insurrection
Blade
X-Files, The Movie
Titan AE
Firestorm
Volcano
The Shining: (Miniseries)
Jingle All The Way
Bad Moon
Escape From LA
The Rock
First Kid
Executive Decision
Down Periscope
That's almost identical to what my friend, modeling/animation lead director at Sony, told me years ago, even though they (himself and those under him) use Maya Ultimate (or so it was called then).
That was before I bought Carrara. He also told me that my animation work needed a LOT of help, and offered up some advice, which led me into really paying close attention to real life motions and keyframing my own. Again, that was all before Carrara. So when I got into Carrara (finally) I was very pleased with how much easier it was (for me) to key in my own animations. I'll never stop working on upping my game in simulating realistic motion.
Also, I think that you have an excellent idea - a set of products being Carrara-rigged cartoon characters! One of the products that I've been working on for quite some time now does have Carrara rigging - but they aren't cartoons... that would be fantastic!
Roy, your point is well taken, but there are tons of examples of, let's say, human-like creatures that we've all seen in feature films that are really excellently done. For example, the octopus-faced guy in Pirates is just one example...can't remember the dude's name. But there are many examples of characters that are not intended to be human, so creepy is okay...but they are human-like and just astonishing CG effects.
But yeah, a purely human, realistic human, that you want people to believe is really human, is exceedingly difficult. But an octopus-faced guy can be real creepy and it's okay, because people don't really know what an octopus-faced guy should look like, so they get a lot of leeway... :) :)
EDIT: Ahh, okay, the octopus guy was Bill Nighy playing Davy Jones. I believe they used Nighy's actual eyes and mouth, and the rest of the character was CG. Which tells you how very difficult it is to match a real human's eyes and mouth movements. ILM won an Academy Award for those visual effects. Good stuff. Additionally, Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy had some amazing CG realistic humans, elves, dwarves and hobbits. The orcs were really kickin' as well! The really cool part is that the viewer cannot even tell where the actor stops being the human actor and begins being the CG one.
We're seeing more and more of this, now that MoCap has become so accurate and well-established. GoFigure's aniBlocks are made using that professional technology, which is why they work so well... for me, anyways!
Nice list o' achievements! Very reinforcing indeed!
My brother has nothing to do with this field at all. He's the Project Head and Engineer of a company's Robotics division. He was showing me a 3D CG demo of his machine in action - a promo to be used to sell the thing. He said that he thought that I'd have a particular interest in the animation because the whole thing was shot in Carrara. It's a Father and Son studio that does all of their CG demos. I thought that was cool! Well... I still do! Who knows, those guys might be right here, in this forum! ???
Absolutly :-)
Dart, I was actually thinking of doing a rigged cartoon type character as a possible product idea. I have started on this but have been sidetracked with other stuff.
Absolutely not ;)Also, I think that you have an excellent idea - a set of products being Carrara-rigged cartoon characters! One of the products that I've been working on for quite some time now does have Carrara rigging - but they aren't cartoons... that would be fantastic!
They have a few cartoon-style rigs. Blank Boi and also Toon Generations.
I really like the new Cartoon skin for Genesis, but alas -- I use 7.2 and don't use Genesis in Carrara.
I was going to try and model my own character and rig it , at least that was the plan.
There are also the Sam and Sadie characters for Genesis, which I am currently making some use of. ;-)
http://www.daz3d.com/sadie-and-sam-for-genesis
I love the Toon Gen characters. They just need more clothes and hairstyles. Or if I could find a tut about how to use the development pack to make my own clothes (that will take an artistic leap for me) and then apply them through Daz.
Other toonish characters would be awesome. They need clothes. Clothes. Clothes. To cover a variety of seasons and activities and work.
I am desperate for several clothing sets for toon gen, and have actually made some static clothes myself which I can then animate when I don't need a head shot. Some things like a fire helmet i can attach directly, but I cannot figure out attaching clothes to the figures unless they are already in my Smart Content folder!
I also have Blank Boi and Stickman. They don't have any clothes, at all. Stickman has a tie.
If you have static clothes that match the character in the default position, the quickest and easiest way to animate them is to select the clothing item, shift-select the skeleton of the figure and use the menu item Attach Skeleton. This attaches the figure's skeleton to the clothes, so that they both move when you move the joints. It is not perfect, you may need to hide body parts etc to avoid poke through, but as a quick solution for a cartoon character, it should give you a good basis.
I couldn't find my design sketches that I was going to use for modeling when I posted earlier but I found the sketch of my character I plan on modeling and rigging. I always tend to model realistic things etc. so this is going outside my comfort zone a little, I think he looks okay but not super . We will see how the modeling goes when I get around to it.
I should say I was going to make his eyes a little smaller when I model him as they are a little buggy or close together.:-P
If you go this route, the following thread might be helpful.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/29483/
I don't know much about Genisis as I've never used a Genisis figure, but I thought that the clothes for Genesis figures morph along with the charcter, no? So...like, if you had a toon morph for Gensis (which we do), wouldn't all of the clothes adapt to the tooned morph, more or less?
This one for me...this makes me almost want to work with Genesis. Needs more to it, but if they build on this morph, I might eventually be moved to start working with Genesis figures.
http://www.daz3d.com/animated-for-genesis-2-male-s-bundle
Yes, providing they are conforming to Genesis in the first place. It is not that difficult to turn a static clothes prop into a conforming one with the tools in DAZ Studio, but it is quicker and simpler to use the Carrara skeleton trick. If that does not provide you with the fitting that you need, then you can go the route of turning it into a conforming item of clothing in DS. I think Dart may have posted something not long ago about how to do it, or it is covered in the Advanced Carrara training pack when I cover a number of approaches to making your own clothing items.
Yes, providing they are conforming to Genesis in the first place. It is not that difficult to turn a static clothes prop into a conforming one with the tools in DAZ Studio, but it is quicker and simpler to use the Carrara skeleton trick. If that does not provide you with the fitting that you need, then you can go the route of turning it into a conforming item of clothing in DS. I think Dart may have posted something not long ago about how to do it, or it is covered in the Advanced Carrara training pack when I cover a number of approaches to making your own clothing items.
Here is an example of modeling in Carrara and using the Daz transfer utility with Genesis/Genesis2 type figures. Phil, I thought your tutorial used a V4 rigging example. I know you update. Could I have an old version? Anyway, for genesis/2
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/45361/#676987
I think his eyes look cool ;)
DAZ Studio makes content creation for Genesis really easy, for the most part. Of course, for great results, you'll need patience and practice - but that goes with most anything. Here is a great thread: Hellboy's Simplified guide to Genesis content creation from the DAZ Studio Discussion forum.
This brings up a great starting of thoughts for me regarding my own Future of Carrara - being that Carrara is in a very unique situation in that it can actually create the models as well as import and use them in a final project. This is why I am very much in line with DAZ 3D developers doing what they can to make "Geneis in Carrara" or even better: DUF in Carrara, the best that it can be. At first I was asking them if they could find a way to add the DS CCTs to Carrara, and add the ability to Carrara to export DS and Poser format content. But after a little more thought, even though I'd still love to see that functionality, it really doesn't bother me having to run DS as my CCT app.
I am getting an error trying to get to the page. Anyone else? I've tried waiting a few minutes and trying again. Other linked pages are working.
I am getting an error trying to get to the page. Anyone else? I've tried waiting a few minutes and trying again. Other linked pages are working.
Fixed, here's the correct link: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14421/
Fixed, here's the correct link: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14421/
Thank you
Awesome everyone. Thanks for the tips and links.
More to learn...
So I'm curious, what happened to the active discussion on the importance (actually, the criticality) of software, and Maya in particular, for anyone who might want to work in the CG/VFX field?
I guess we're all agreed that if you aren't a Maya master, then you might as well forget it, right? :) :) :)
Just because everybody doesn't shout it from the rooftops doesn't mean everyone disagrees with you Joe, or that others have reached a consensus to ignore what you say. As an example, I take it you missed this post by stringtheory where he posts a response from a friend of his about this very subject, and then provides a list of projects his friend has worked on. Seems to me he validates your opinion.
Perhaps the reason the thread has taken the detour that it has, is because the discussion has been had, points and counter points made, and anymore would be a regurgitated back-and-forth-rehash (which tastes terrible the second or third time around....or...fifth....or...sixth).
No, I was just joking a bit Evil... :) :)
I saw the post by stringtheory's friend, and I was just wondering if that changed anybody's mind. Because I know that some people in online forums tend to stick to their opinions sometimes, even in spite of strong evidence or facts to the contrary.
Just curious how folks will respond...I'm always amazed when those with little or no background or experience in a field or subject can be so fervent and certain of their opinions. It's just nice to see people who respond rationally with stuff like "wow, I didn't know that...guess I learned something". I dunno, just gives me hope for a rational and objective world. :) :) :) :)
I guess we're all agreed that if you aren't a Maya master, then you might as well forget it, right? :) :) :)
I'm not terribly good at debating. Maybe my mental logic is totally different than the rest of the world. My lack of allegiance to any one side makes me appear to be a flip flopper, when really, I just want to cover all of the bases. I'm not anti Carrara nor Pro Maya.
People sometimes take different meanings from things. Take the last part of the quote above from the CG effects expert. While to those who are looking for validation that learning Maya isnt important to getting a job, to someone like me who has seen the opposite be true the part of the statement that is in bold is what's most important. Why did he say it is still good to know these packages if it isnt true? While he did say Maya wasnt all there is to the game, he could not deny that most studios DO expect you to be at least versed in these applications. It is such an accepted assumption that he hardly sees much point in mentioning it, but he still does for our sake. And do note as well that he said you might be asked to do a scene in 3ds Max, or Maya, or Houdini...but no mention of being asked to do a scene in Carrara. Maybe its because to people working at his level Carrara isnt taken seriously enough. What I get from this statement is that learning Maya is a good start, but that I should learn my way around 3ds max and Houdini as well, even if I don't master them. Flexibility in using professional level CG software, not just any software, is the key to getting a job. What I wish we had asked him is "How many Carrara users have you seen make demo reels that were good enough to get them hired at your studio?" He'd probably say none or very very few, just an uneducated guess.
Have you ever looked at the resume of a person in the effects field? While they all list professional credits if they have them, they also mention which software packages they are well versed in. It's usually mentioned as part of the education or the special skills. Either way, software is often listed.
And do realize that there are a TON of schools out there selling classes on learning Maya touting that the training they offer in Maya to be the best way to get a job in CG. Blame the education spin. Maybe the schools are misleading just to get more students, or maybe there is some grain of truth to it, probably a combination of the two.
On the value of experts;
Experts are not always as honest as they can be, not because they are untruthful, but because their journey may not have been typical.
If you ask Angelina Jolie to give you her expert opinion on how to become a famous actress she'd probably say something insightful and useful on the surface. But knowing well as we do that her father is Hollywood royalty, she's been wearing designer clothes since she was an infant, has been meeting and getting to know famous and powerful people her entire life....nothing about Angelina Jolie's life mirrors anything in my own. Maybe for her being pretty was enough combined with the other benefits to get her to the finish line, but that might not be enough for me being not pretty and being not invited to the Oscars at age 9 like she was. She might say that training in the dramatic arts isn't really that important, because she never had to attend a school like Julliard just to get the call the attend the audition for that big movie, her father got her that call. But for the rest of us who aren't John Voyt's daughter, we need all the help we can get. This isn't to say she isn't deserving of her success, even if Dad got her the call, she still delivered on the audition winning her the part...and I happen to think she is quite fine as an actress, regardless of where she went to school. Still, her expert advice might not be so expert for people who's experiences differ significantly from her own.
Lebron James went straight to the pros right out of high school. Michael Jordan went to college before the pros. Both found places in the NBA and could arguably be the two best players in the game over the past 30 years. Which journey was the correct one? We should ask them for their expert advice...
Neither Lebron James nor Michael Jordan are typical in any way, everything about them is exceptional, including their journeys from the inner city to the national basketball association. The most expert advice they can offer to the rest of us mere mortals is to "work hard, and never give up." Great advice and true, but it isnt very specific.
Glen Close isnt a classically trained actor, and has found great success. Meryl Streep on the other hand is a trained Shakespearean actress, she too has found great success. I'm sure Meryl would credit a big part of her success to her training at Yale, while Glenn could make no such claims. Expert advice is good, but you need the advice of LOTs of experts before any directly provable insights will reveal themselves.
Another example.
I myself got into a heated debate with someone this week in the film and television writers guild about using Final Draft vs a freeware script writing software called CeltX. Basically, even though CeltX does 95% of what Final draft does and is available for free meaning you can start writing today if the inspiration hits you, apparently most Hollywood studios wont even read it if it isn't in the format they expect it to be in, which is in Final Draft which is a few hundred dollars. The idea is that the reader wants to be certain he is working with a professional writer, and professional writers don't use freeware tools.
I argued in response, "but what about the value of the story?" He said, "dude, if they don't ever read it, there is no story, and to boot, if you're not a professional, they don't want to work with you."
I said, "Ouch! Well they're all a bunch of stupid snobs," and he said..."duh."
Living in NYC, I see everything. Every single day I deal with people at all levels and I can tell you that every industry has its "SNOBBERY."
Part of the "learn Maya" mantra is to quiet the snobs of the industry who would want to discredit your work outright before giving it and you a chance. It would be nice if one could reach the finish line without the assistance of a single snob along the way, but that just isn't the case. The snobs need satisfying as well.
Personally, I don't use Maya anymore, but there was a time when it was all I used. It showed me how a graphics application designed for academics and not artists was designed, and it blew my mind. I KNEW I'd NEVER fully master the software even on that version and that was some 8 years ago.
One more example. I learned that no one in NYC wants to hire a waiter with less than 2 years experience in fine dining. To get my first job after a hundred rejections for my lack of experience was to LIE. Yep, I lied. After being told to come back to train I ran home, pulled out the chess board, tossed off all the pieces, filled a glass of water and practiced walking around the apartment balancing this darned drink on this makeshift "tray" because I knew that if I couldn't carry a martini across the dining-room floor my lack of experience in restaurants would become obvious and I'd be let go. Little did I know there are more things than inability to balance a tray that could give me away. I got through it of course, but I ran into a lot of snobs along the ay who made me feel small at one point or another because I lacked credentials they considered essential. It was the snob interviewing me who I had to impress just to get the job at all. Once I was hired and doing well enough, my previous experience became moot, fortunately.
Anyone looking for a job in the FX industry gets my well wishes. If you do figure it out, please come back and tell the rest of us how you did it, even if your journey hasnt been typical.it still might be applicable to some people even if not all.