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BTW,
I have spent time with some of the finest pianists in the world. I know that this whole thing is now blown out of proportion - it was just a quick analogy. Really good pianists can make the lowliest junk of a keyboard sound like you'd never think something of such low quality and worth could produce. His analogy, in this case, is sound. My nephew (actually a bassist, but also an amazing musician no matter what he touches) takes apart those gift cards that play music, taps into their tiny circuit boards, and performs live with them! LOL
I prefer to play on my high-end Yamaha drum kit. Not because it is "The best kit in the world", heck no. I got a huge sale on it at just the right time. But I can play on toy drums really well - truly... you'd be amazed. I've even been invited to play on kits (live, mind you) that were set up for left-handed drummers, with entirely different configurations, etc., I don't care... I just know what to do - so I do it.
My bother makes some cash. So his Bass guitars are very fine works of art. But he is a master, and can spank the heck out of a plastic toy with nylon strings. Heck, I can even sing without a microphone!
If you really want to take this philosophy, do this instead:
Don't buy anything yet.
Enroll in the best college that you can get into for the role that you wish to play in the field, and let them dictate which software you use - as you'll need it for your homework. If you don't need it for homework, and are still unsure, don't buy anything. If you're still unsure while in school, but wouldn't mind having some widely accepted software on your machine, grab the latest Blender.
You'll see, while you're in college, that joe is right. The software used is vastly less important on your resume than what your demo reel looks like. Chances are, the way into a big production house will be the result of some sort of internship. Most of those (not all, as I have found) firms don't mess with public applications but will have minimum degree requirements in certain fields. EDIT: During your internship you'll get the chance to work on the machines and software that they use. That's what the whole internship is all about - and you'll earn all about this stuff in college.
I was reading a 3D animation (college) text book a while back which gave, what it called, an incomplete list of good 3d modeling software to purchase as a student. But it is always a good idea to go with the one that benefits your own needs above and beyond any others - because:
A - Most jobs that you might land will provide the software which you'll be using
and
B - All 3D software is good, because it takes genius to create 3d software
EDIT: Oh... and I've forgot to mention that I was delighted and amazed to see Carrara Pro on that list! ;) along with Maya 3D, 3DS Max, and LightWave
====================================================================================================
Jonstark makes an excellent point in his dynamic hair tutorial. One which I can attest to from my own searches not long ago. Try this as an experiment:
Do a search for "Dynamic Hair" in YouTube or Vimeo or whatever that plays example video files.
Here, C4D will cost you several times the cost of Carrara, so try this one:
Search "Cinema 4D dynamic hair"
try "LightWave dynamic hair
try "Maya dynamic hair"
then try Carrara dynamic hair
How much evidence do you find that Carrara is light years behind its competitors? Carrara costs one third the cheapest example I've mentioned above, when Carrara is NOT on sale.
Now try this:
If you do not own "Realism Rendering" by Phil Wilkes - sold at DAZ 3D under Infinite Skills, either buy that or find someone that will let you watch it at their house. Watch the whole thing and tell me that Carrara cannot turn out what Maya can. You cannot, because Carrara can.
joe's point is more valid than you know. The process of rendering is a digital raytracing of light calculations against materials and shapes and other modifiers, etc., All 3d rendering software can render images. Some have more features to make things easier. Some tend to get you status in certain circles. Some software just bugs the user into not liking to use it, while other software has a more comfortable interface for that user's needs... but Carrara has one fine render engine, and an unlimited surface material editor.
I think if you were able to assemble that list of Carrara artists that DADA_universe mentioned into one room, Dart would just talk the hind legs off us all and we'd never actually get anything done....;-) :lol:
Here is an excert from a college FAQ sheet for a animation program in Canada.
If a student wants to go into 3D animation why do they have to take traditional hand-drawing first?
When we set up the 3 year program we asked people at Pixar, ILM and other 3D studios what they wanted
to see from a graduate. They said they saw lots of students who knew their way around software packages
but few who could apply animation principles and fewer still who could communicate their ideas through
drawing. Drawing is like learning a new language. To be able to communicate in the industry you have to be
adept at presenting your ideas visually. Animation is also about learning to see images in motion. There is
something about learning to see drawings “flipped” then line-tested that is a vital foundation for students
to develop an “animator’s eye” and apply that to any tool, be it a pencil or computer program.
So as you can see they work on the basics and then on to software as it is of little use if you have not got the basics.
Datan,
I have been following these posts on the validity of Carrara..I hope you don't mind if I add my own, view as a recent user and advocate of Carrara.
Maya, C4d, etc are catering to the Hollywood productions, their sub-contractors and big network advertising houses demands. These 3D programs have legions of users because they are used by these large organizations - and that is where the majority of the animation jobs are found. Maya must have numerous programmers working to keep their software in synch with this "show Biz" industry. And the schools are using this software because this is the pipeline leading to jobs in 3D. It is a symbiotic relationship. At present there is no way that Carrara can compete with this type of structure - or should it. To drag up an over-used phrase, "we are marching to a different drummer."
Carrara in my view is a quality independent system that is aimed at the low budget entrepreneur. It has the unique asset of having almost seamless and effortless integration with a library of 3D characters. No other 3D program has this felicitous advantage that I can see. In the right hands this program, as it is today, is capable of turning out some truly impressive material. So what should Carrara's mission be. Certainly not following in the footsteps of Maya, etc. with their emphasis on 4K, Hollywood and large render farm necessities. I think Carrara should be aimed at turning out high quality images for fashion/ advertising and especially video for the internet. That is in my opinion, a niche in which it can occupy and prosper. Of course that is what it is doing already. Even now, many of the people who post on this forum are putting up their images on U-tube, Facebook or their websites. As time goes on this traffic can only increase. But there is another aspect to Carrara's advantage and that is the small screen "movies". I think as a story telling media this is just in its childhood. For even the largest budget hollywood production, in all its 4k and beyond glory, is no bigger or better than what you can produce when seen on an iPad. In other words, it is possible for an underfunded, independent to turn out a terrific movie using just Carrara or some of the scenes in Carrara, if the motivation and talent is there. It is up to us..the tool is capable -are we.
Starboardtack
Beautiful, Starboardtack...
Simply beautiful!
Quick aside for an above comment by Phil,
Heh, yeah. I would be doing a lot of talking! I can talk as I work, sing while I drum... trying to shut me up can be a daunting affair, one which often leads to failure! LOL
But with a team like that, you would also see the other side of me: where I inject a thought to other minds, and then listen closely. I value everybody's opinions, even when I disagree.
BC, I am certainly not trying to undermine your view... not at all. It is actually a very valid statement.
I have always been one who believes that Maya and the others are not overly priced. Having constant development must be paid for somehow. And this constant development leads to new technologies that the rest of us can ride the waves of.
So I apologize for my above outburst.
Starboardtack,
I feel the same way... almost to a tee!
Carrara sales have been climbing, and that is good. That is my ultimate goal, almost above my own production. Why? Well it started from just a very strong liking of Carrara, but shortly afterwards it grew to being because I really like the people who use Carrara, and I enjoy seeing our family grow!
Due to all of that spawns my indifference towards when the next update occurs. I want Carrara to continue on its course of being affordable to all, and profitable to DAZ 3D, so that it might remain available forever.
I am one that believes that an artist can create a masterpiece, and software has nothing to do with that. I am certainly not blind to the growth of other software but, lucky for me, I don't need any of that, for I own Carrara!
Chickenman,
Yes. The endeavor of animation truly is not for the impatient! I am constantly studying real life motions, as well as taking in cartoons and animated shows and pausing to step through special effect scenes in other things. I'll never call myself a master no matter how far I get, and will always endeavor to get better at it.
I find it to be very artistic and so that is my approach... as an artist.
Carrara Forever! :ahhh:
...and it will sound nothing remotely like if they played what they played on an actual expensive, proper piano.
It will only ever produce what the junk product could produce -- at the highest end that the junk product could produce.
You're still ending up with exceptionally inferior results. I don't get the point you're trying to make.
If we pitted the greatest 100 Carrara artists in the world against the greatest 100 Maya or 3DS or Blender or C4D artists in the world to make a short film, the Carrara artists would be at a severe disadvantage and would lose that battle.
Carrara is what it is. I love Carrara. I have no issue with Carrara. But there's no use pretending that it's on the level of these high end programs.
Not sure at all!
We have like them, a whole arsenal of plugins to put them on their knees !!! ;-P
Plus DAZ/POSER characters and products compatibilities...
This is both a strength and a weakness. A strength because they are the best available, they are rigged, textured and have all the poses and and canned animations you can buy. A weakness because they are so easy to use, that virtually no-one explores making animations using home-made figures.
You guys are going to hate me for saying this and I do so with all due respect, but apart from the Princess and Frog by Faba, "Human Nature" and snippets from "Dinner for Few", I have yet to see a decent character animation made in Carrara - if there is such a thing, please point me to it and I will hasten to apologise.
On the other hand, I've seen three really good good ones made in Blender. with never a realistic human or animal in it and no canned animations used. One of the reasons it that it simply not possible, with all the help from canned animations, to do a realistic human or animal animation. Real humans and animals are simply too complex to imitate realistically - not even Pixar, with all their resources, even tries. Seems to me that only amateurs aspire to do it.
We see a lot of 5-second snippets of walks that come close, but are still pretty wooden.
The outstanding character animations I referred to above were made by professionals, using cartoon characters, as well as a plugin and techniques which are not commonly used in Carrara.
Another reason is that Daz/Poser figures are simply not rigged for realistic animation. After seeing videos of professional animators rigging figures, I have come to the realisation that Daz/Poser figures are rigged for still poses, not animation. Another serious drawback in Carrara is that it doesn't have realtime playback and a dopesheet, which makes good character animation timing near impossible.
Real people wear real clothing, which needs to move realistically to be believable - Carrara does not have this ability. These are inherent faults in Carrara which cannot be overcome by any amount of work-arounds.
As for a bunch of Carrara masters getting together to collaborate - well, that was tried and failed virtually at the starting gate. A few attempts have been made to revive the project, to no avail. The modelers among us delivered the goods within a few days, but the animators never came to the party. Why? Probably because the canned animations don't work on Carrara-rigged figures.
Don't get me wrong - I love and support Carrara and use it virtually daily, but I am also a realist. If anyone really wants to get Carrara into the arena of the big boys, the biggest favour they could do would be to develop a line of natively rigged-for-animation cartoon characters, so that the users could get over the fascination with e-dolls and explore the wider world of animation.
With cartoon characters, the viewer expects exaggerated movement, but with realistic humans and animals, one expects to see realistic movement, which is simply not on in CG as of today, so the results invariably look stilted.
I have no intention of insulting anyone and will be happy if someone could prove me wrong:)
Edit: There is a guy goes by the name of CGDreams, who produces human figures comparable, if not superior to, Daz figures. He gives professional training in Modo - guess which application he prefers for modelling humans in? Hexagon!
This one paragraph was the reason I picked Carrara over Blender and the other 3D software I was evaluating:
I found the need for a massive staff (watch the credits), a budget of over half a million and a year to do 14 minutes of animation a WAY bigger limitation than any of Carraras.
Wow, Roy....I'm stunned. My jaw actually dropped when I read your post. It sounds like something I'd say. And in fact, if I didn't know better, I'd think you've been brainwashed by the infamous JoeMamma2000. :) :) :)
I'm also glad that you said it, not me, cuz I'd have a posse out looking for me about now... :) :)
Anyway, two points I'd like to make....
First, has anyone ever watched South Park? I love South Park. Hilarious, IMO. I did a little research on South Park, and do you know it started out as some guys painting pieces of cardboard and moving them up and down as their "animation"? And when computers came along, they photographed the cardboard and imported that into the computer. It doesn't get any cruder than that. And if you look at it today, the episodes look pretty much the same.
Now, did you also know that South Park has won tons of awards? "Time magazine included the show on its list of the "100 Best TV Shows of All Time"....Rolling Stone declared it to be the funniest show on television since its debut 10 years prior...In 2008, South Park was named the 12th-greatest TV show of the past 25 years by Entertainment Weekly...it has been nominated for the Emmy Award for Outstanding Animated Program ten times....
And the list goes on.
Now, did you also know that they knock out an episode in less than one week?
The point is this: TALENT. If you have talent, and can produce something that people enjoy, then software is irrelevant. Absolutely, totally, irrelevant. Nobody ever talks about talent, but that is the key ingredient. Not Carrara vs. Maya, but talent.
And my second point:
As Roy says, animating realistic human characters is INCREDIBLY difficult to do convincingly. Even cartoon characters need to have detailed, special, and complex rigging to show all the range of emotions and facial expressions that viewers associate with what people are saying and thinking. You CANNOT do that with a prepackaged Carrara/Poser character. Well, maybe you can, but the effort would be incredible. That's why big professional studios who even attempt that have highly skilled people doing it.
And that goes with every aspect of production. With all due respect to everyone here, few people in the world have all the lighting, animating, texturing, rigging, rendering, etc., skills it takes to do a decent production. That's one reason why big companies hire specialists.
And hobbyists and one-man-bands, with all due respect, often have no clue what that entails solely because they have never experienced it, nor have they experienced critique from highly skilled and talented peers.
I am a complete outsider, but I think I have something to try to contribute again. I am not an artist. I am in a completely different field.
Furthermore, I do not have native artistic talent. This is not false modesty. I honestly do not see the world the way many of you do. I can be taught that people appreciate some lighting arrangement or some SSS effect, but I truly do not see it as better. I might arrange the lights that way because y'all have told me to. Same goes for most of the other components and effects. I can learn basic drawing conventions and perspective and shadows and a host of other things. But although I can be taught to construct a better sketch of the old man on the park bench or the buildings at sunset, the stiffness of my sketches will always be apparent to anyone who appreciates art. Ditto for computer generated art. And I have the same issues with music and many other things.
However, I can learn the software, and if I do say so myself, I have done a pretty good job of that. I can also learn Poser, and Hexagon, and Bryce, and if I put my mind to it, Maya or Blender or Sculptris or Modo or.... Not only that, but for many functions I can explain the software to someone else.
With all due respect, even I can model a toon character in Carrara and create morphs to have whatever motion at the hips, spine, shoulders, and other bodyparts that you instruct me to. The problem with me is that I have to be instructed. An artist could make it nice from their own powers of observation supplemented by formal training (which I admit that I can't). That isn't a limitation of Carrara. What arrangement of vertexes in an organic form can Hexagon construct that Carrara can't? Sorry, not buying it. Even me, a person with no eye, have modeled figures that people did not know I had modeled, and then had veterans on this forum tease me for using "Daz dollies" when in fact I had modeled the figure and rigged and posed it myself in Carrara. And I have no talent! Think what an artist can do.
** Now y'all need to hear this. **
Before you hire me, you should hire anyone who has demonstrated artistic talent with any software, even if I learn Maya (or whatever the flavor of the day is). As has been said, hire talent and teach skills.
Rinse
Repeat
Carrara is just a tool. It is a jack-of-all-trades tool. By definition, it is a master of none. If something works better for you, use it. But I'm not in the Renderosity Poser forum complaining that it is 2015 and Poser doesn't have a plant editor yet. Maybe if I complain enough times here in this Renderosity Poser forum then Smith Micro will put a plant editor in Poser? Really?
It gets old, and I've had a bad day. I hit the "send" button at the office and will likely be spending the next 6 weeks digging myself out of a hole. Now I am hitting the "submit post" button here. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Cheers.
I've been doing creative work for 40 years now. As a theater designer. As a graphic designer and typographer. As a musician and composer. As a writer. Currently, I'm a creative director, trying to inspire good work out of others while maintaining some output of my own.
Tools don't matter. There are a great many ways to bring anyone's tools and output into whatever forms I need. I need talent and the ability to respond to suggestions, good ideas and the willingness to listen and understand how communicating to an audience can be improved. Some tools make that easier, yes, but if one doesn't have the vision and drive to do the work, the tools just get in the way.
But that's me. And my experience. Some never get it, and they require a hell of a lot of editing. The ones who do get it need very little from me ultimately.
...and it will sound nothing remotely like if they played what they played on an actual expensive, proper piano.
It will only ever produce what the junk product could produce -- at the highest end that the junk product could produce.
You're still ending up with exceptionally inferior results. I don't get the point you're trying to make.
If we pitted the greatest 100 Carrara artists in the world against the greatest 100 Maya or 3DS or Blender or C4D artists in the world to make a short film, the Carrara artists would be at a severe disadvantage and would lose that battle.
Carrara is what it is. I love Carrara. I have no issue with Carrara. But there's no use pretending that it's on the level of these high end programs. I can hear what you're saying. I agree with parts of it. The statement that I responded to was much different, however. More like: "You (without saying who) will never be able to produce something out of Carrara that can be put head to head with something produced out of Blender or Maya, et al."
I already know that I can find something on YouTube "produced out of Blender or Maya, et al" and make and/or find something that can go head to head with it. Even blow it away, in some cases. But the other thing is that you're not correct about the pianist thing. Maybe you know some pianists that can not make good sounds on junk. I know quite a few who can make the cheapest keyboard available sound like something really special. Not just what they play, but the sounds as well, because of the way they're playing it. Really poor street folks can make beautiful music without even having a proper instrument. In fact, good music was born long before the invention of a proper instrument.
Trying use that analogy to say that Carrara is a crappy instrument is also not true. Maya is vastly more updated. No contest there. Carrara development is behind the times. Not all of us need any of the latest and greatest tech to fulfill our goals.
I already know that I can find something on YouTube "produced out of Blender or Maya, et al" and make and/or find something that can go head to head with it. Even blow it away, in some cases. But the other thing is that you're not correct about the pianist thing. Maybe you know some pianists that can not make good sounds on junk. I know quite a few who can make the cheapest keyboard available sound like something really special. Not just what they play, but the sounds as well, because of the way they're playing it. Really poor street folks can make beautiful music without even having a proper instrument. In fact, good music was born long before the invention of a proper instrument.
Trying use that analogy to say that Carrara is a crappy instrument is also not true. Maya is vastly more updated. No contest there. Carrara development is behind the times. Not all of us need any of the latest and greatest tech to fulfill our goals.
I think maybe you're misspeaking for these great pianists you know. They would vehemently disagree with what you're saying here. Every single one of them will tell you that they cannot produce anything of the same quality out of a $30 Casio keyboard that they can out to a $20,000 grand. Nothing in what you're saying at all reflects the position or knowing of professional pianists.
Now, if you're saying that someone can take, say, a trash can and play some really awesome music with it, of course that's true -- and that's not what I'm addressing. I'm saying if you want to produce the kind of music that can only be produced via expensive instruments or equipment, then you *must* have those expensive instruments or that expensive equipment to work with.
But ya know what? Who cares? Because folks using Carrara are independent creators. I animate with Flash, which is still looked down on by a lot of animators. I likewise animate with Carrara, which is likewise looked down on. But the folks who are looking down, I promise, they are not the ones out there actually creating anything on their own. They're either trolls or someone else's employee.
Carrara (like Flash) gives independent artists a *chance* to compete in the marketplace against largely insurmountable odds. I'm okay with it not being Maya or C4D because there's no way as a lone creator I can ever put out a finished work in a timely manner if I was trying to do everything like a friggin Dreamworks movie.
Carrara is not for the big studios, nor is it for the folks looking to someday work at the big studios. Carrara is for the independent creators making things outside and largely antithetical to the big studios. I embrace that about Carrara. That's the direction I want to see it continue treading, that should be its future -- not to compete with studio softwares, but to continue to find ways to make it more and more plug and play for the average creator.
Luckily for me, I am less concerned with absolute realism, and will be much more focused on art - but that's not an area I will discuss just yet. I disagree immensely about nobody doing great animation, if the original statement (in one of the posts up there, not the quote here) any animation anywhere. But I'm actually thinking that he meant in Carrara, or something like that. I have been doing a lot of digging. Again, not really looking exactly for realism... but I guess that IS what I was looking for the most... and I've seen some really nice stuff out there. To me, there is no relevance to which media was used - just the idea of making animations. After I got more heavily into this - and even much more so after getting more heavily into Howler, cartoon animation and 3d model animation are really the same thing - just performed differently - but that doesn't make sense - how I've just said it... but I've taken a lot of things about into base levels to look deep, and have been having a ball... and I love that!
Doing everything is also a PITA in many ways but is also an amazing thrill. I've done a lot of experimenting with the combinations of sound, music, paint, render, and post effect, in a few (or more) ways to go about it and found that I enjoy using both making music and sound to fit the video as well as creating animations to fit music and then adding sound and post. There was a time there when I've decided to switch out my original idea of composing everything myself, and just using purchased loops, sequences and sounds, but have since decided that I really enjoy the results of my own music over joining together loops and clips from a bought library - even though that would be a great way to do it if you don't have access to musicians and such. So now I'm planning on recording my own loops and clips, and using the software the same way, but using my own stuff.
I Love Software! But I have no clue how it works. Okay, that might be a bit over said... I am not clueless... I could probably figure out the SDK if it's written in C++, as long as there are a bunch of other scripts that I can copy/paste from/to until I figure my way out... but I don't actually understand code... I can just be a parrot.
Anyways, after reading that post, I have SO much respect for you as an Artist! Yeah... you heard me... and artist! You've used Carrara to make some really nice models so far. I remember when you've first come in - and that wasn't that long ago. Beautiful post.
First lets define what it is we are talking about when we say 3D. With the exception of 3D cartoons which are a world unto their own in all senses of the word, 3D in the movies is used in a mix with other assets so as to be convincing to the eye. In most cases this involves making still image mats in a program such as Photoshop, integrating the 3D figures with real actors in After Effects or one of the similar higher end programs, and then there is the green screen and editing magic. Very seldom is the whole scene done in 3D. You just have to look at the scrolling credits after major flick, the long, long, long.....long ...long ... and its still rolling list of people involved in the many departments to turn out these productions. Having said that, let me also ad that very few, few, few...few...and fewer of all these hugely expensive ham sandwiches are worth the effort that went into them. I love the movies, but have had an ever increasing problem through the years of finding a movie that I want to see. Being an avid reader, I scream at the numbskulls that select the movies that they decide to make. To have such power and to turn out the so much moronic trash. .......I should avoid this topic.
To sum this up... Yes its talent that counts more than any other factor...especially talent to choose the right story to tell, and how to tell it best. All the King's Horses and all the King's men cannot put a stinker back together again. All the thousands of computers, with thousands of 3D artists running Maya, or whatever and it all comes to nought with out a simple thing like a good story.
Like the previous post said "tools don't matter" Or I said in an earlier post, "the best brush does not make the best painting". If you could see the crude, hand made brushed that Leonardo, or Raphael, et. used you would be amazed. Then there are minerals to be ground so as to mix their own oil colors, the impure and contaminated oils themselves, and of course the rough linen canvas. Today we have superb materials..but has the art itself improved ? It is talent that trumps all.
Coming back to Carrara I believe it is tool capable of doing some amazing things. By far the largest impediment to creating some outstanding visuals is ourselves.
Starboardtack
I already know that I can find something on YouTube "produced out of Blender or Maya, et al" and make and/or find something that can go head to head with it. Even blow it away, in some cases. But the other thing is that you're not correct about the pianist thing. Maybe you know some pianists that can not make good sounds on junk. I know quite a few who can make the cheapest keyboard available sound like something really special. Not just what they play, but the sounds as well, because of the way they're playing it. Really poor street folks can make beautiful music without even having a proper instrument. In fact, good music was born long before the invention of a proper instrument.
Trying use that analogy to say that Carrara is a crappy instrument is also not true. Maya is vastly more updated. No contest there. Carrara development is behind the times. Not all of us need any of the latest and greatest tech to fulfill our goals.
I think maybe you're misspeaking for these great pianists you know. They would vehemently disagree with what you're saying here. Every single one of them will tell you that they cannot produce anything of the same quality out of a $30 Casio keyboard that they can out to a $20,000 grand. Nothing in what you're saying at all reflects the position or knowing of professional pianists.
Now, if you're saying that someone can take, say, a trash can and play some really awesome music with it, of course that's true -- and that's not what I'm addressing. I'm saying if you want to produce the kind of music that can only be produced via expensive instruments or equipment, then you *must* have those expensive instruments or that expensive equipment to work with.
But ya know what? Who cares? Because folks using Carrara are independent creators. I animate with Flash, which is still looked down on by a lot of animators. I likewise animate with Carrara, which is likewise looked down on. But the folks who are looking down, I promise, they are not the ones out there actually creating anything on their own. They're either trolls or someone else's employee.
Carrara (like Flash) gives independent artists a *chance* to compete in the marketplace against largely insurmountable odds. I'm okay with it not being Maya or C4D because there's no way as a lone creator I can ever put out a finished work in a timely manner if I was trying to do everything like a friggin Dreamworks movie.
Carrara is not for the big studios, nor is it for the folks looking to someday work at the big studios. Carrara is for the independent creators making things outside and largely antithetical to the big studios. I embrace that about Carrara. That's the direction I want to see it continue treading, that should be its future -- not to compete with studio softwares, but to continue to find ways to make it more and more plug and play for the average creator. I hear ya... I do.
A friend of mine whom is a PA for a different 3D marketplace, but also works at a fairly sizable firm actually convince them to purchase Carrara for use in animation - they just so happened to need what Roygee was talking about: canned animations. While some folks might say that they're not realistic, it's in the user and the eye of the beholder and, of course, the quality of the can and what's inside of it. Some of them are actually done in the same fashion that the big houses use. Anyways, they used Carrara as the animation software, but still used LightWave for rendering - not exactly sure why.
That is one small examle, even though I totally catch your point. But as it might turn out, many of the firms that continue to update their expensive Maya license may not have anything to do with needs - but may have more to do with what they 'think' they need. Some companies use tools from a certain company because of politics (true), where other's might do so for prestige. Other's still may do so only because it's what their lead modeler knows how to use - but might not even use any more of it than what is completely available within Carrara. Do you know who knows what Carrara is capable of? Only those whom have used it enough to know how it works and what its capable of.
Music and Musicians
If we look at your pianist argument (not for the sake of arguing but...) it would seem that your saying that Carrara uses a crappy rubber stamp to render with. When I went from using Maya on my friends computer, and 3DS Max from my mentor's computer, I could see that Carrara (and Poser and DS) are very capable 3D rendering applications. Try not to confuse default settings with "All that we can do".
My baby Sister is one amazing artist in any media she gets her hands on. My Dad has a painting on his wall that she made in High school - it's a gorgeous, well composed painting of her Cat, giving the most awesome expression that only that cat could make - and she made that face all the time - so we always immediately knew which cat the painting was of as soon as we caught just a glimpse of it. The colors are beautiful. Truly. She made her own paint from coffee grounds! The canvas was an old shirt that my Dad threw away! Get this... she made her own brush by tipping the ends of her own, super-long hair! She's a funny case.
...and, yeah... Carrara IS an excellent art class room, full of all manner of things to study... or just play with. Who cares what we really create, as long as we enjoy doing it, right? Yet another strong selling point for Carrara:
Although capable as most anything, it's got ease-of-use galore, and so many fun examples to get you started... even built in ways to make art without importing anything at all... just using what can be created by selecting things from the interface! That's cool! I love Cripeman's latest video tutorial!
Diomede, I too am not an artist - I am a modeler and I fully agree that models can be made well in any software that is capable of putting three verts together and forming a polygon.
I was discussing the merits of having ready-made content and making the point that there is too much emphasis on e-dolls and canned animation, which makes users reliant on something that is simply not made for good character animation. The shortcomings on this front which I mentioned, and I forgot to add that Carrara has no solid ground function, makes it virtually impossible to do realistic human animation.
Which is why I suggested that folk should rather concentrate on cartoon animation - also not easy, but possible to do well in Carrara.
The examples of good cartoon animation are there; the examples of good realistic human animation are not.
The reference to CGDreams preferring Hexagon to Modo for making realistic humans is in his own words and had no reference to Carrara. Genesis could just as well have been made in Hexagon or Carrara, or wings 3D for that matter. It is just ironic that Daz artists use an external application to develop content.
Joe, as difficult as it may be to believe, I do usually agree with your views :)
Thanks Dartan.
Will write tomorrow. I have spent a whole day on Carrara..burnt out..Off to sleep.
Starboardtack
Diomede, I too am not an artist - I am a modeler and I fully agree that models can be made well in any software that is capable of putting three verts together and forming a polygon.
I was discussing the merits of having ready-made content and making the point that there is too much emphasis on e-dolls and canned animation, which makes users reliant on something that is simply not made for good character animation. The shortcomings on this front which I mentioned, and I forgot to add that Carrara has no solid ground function, makes it virtually impossible to do realistic human animation.
Which is why I suggested that folk should rather concentrate on cartoon animation - also not easy, but possible to do well in Carrara.
The examples of good cartoon animation are there; the examples of good realistic human animation are not.
The reference to CGDreams preferring Hexagon to Modo for making realistic humans is in his own words and had no reference to Carrara. Genesis could just as well have been made in Hexagon or Carrara, or wings 3D for that matter. It is just ironic that Daz artists use an external application to develop content.
Joe, as difficult as it may be to believe, I do usually agree with your views :)
When you're saying "canned animations" do you mean when people shoot mocap and use it in their animations?
Personally I think using mocap with Carrara is one of its strong suits. Maybe you don't mean mocap, though. Are you talking about those "runway walks" and "stripper dances"? Yeah, those are largely terrible.
(I use mocap almost exclusively, only bringing in hand animation if I need some squash and stretch).
Sorry if I'm posting too much. I get a bit excited when I read that Carrara cannot produce as good of images as some expensive brand. That simply is not true!
Other expensive software - might be absolutely worth its weight. It is certainly worth what one would pay for it. But that doesn't make the images any better. What you do get is current development to keep up with the industry trends. Things like instant running fluid simulations, surface-tracking morphs or constraints or some other new thing. Higher end physics calculations, artificial intelligence for animated figures, including flocking behaviors (actually, that came from a software plugin I've seen that costs something like 45,000.00 USD for the actual software, and then a sizable fee per year to continue to use it)((Carrara has a free plugin with some of this sort of behavior (not nearly to the degree of this, but still) by Fractal Dimensia)), new technological features to assist in our 3d graphic efforts in any of the areas, often most areas per full version upgrade.
I do not wish to slam the importance of this new tech, nor its cost.
So here's the thing:
Are these applications worth their cost? My Answer: Yes, especially if you think that you need (or even want) the features that they offer.
Is Carrara to be considered a cheap, watered-down application, made of cheap plastic that comes badly tuned? My Answer: No. As a matter of fact, Carrara was built with some very impressive features, and has been updated with even better ones.
But isn't it difficult to get good results using Carrara defaults on many of its functions? My Answer: Well, if you're looking to make a realistic image using 3D elements, yes. And there's a very good reason for doing so. Carrara is not built to answer one particular question, or even a category of problems. Carrara is made to answer nearly anything you might wish to question. In other words, it's built to do anything that anyone might want to use it for - from the fellow that wants to make a photo of his sister make her look like her tongue is sticking out, and make 3d letters that say: Happy Birthday Sister!" - to the lady that wants to animate birds fluttering from one branch to another on an entirely different tree... the sparsely leaved twig right in front of the camera - to the guy who wants to animate a giant T-Rex chasing him around his house, and finally eating him! And having his wife say: "But I thought that's what he'd want for his Birthday!" - to the girl who just wants to make gumballs on a colored background, or a picture of an ant, or just play dress-up with a collection of DAZ Dollies... whatever.
So since the software can do anything, it would be really cool if it worked on all computers! So in order to begin that endeavor, let's go through and make sure that none of the defaults will crash a lesser computer. After all, the pros will save their own presets anyways.
Does Carrara's lower price reflect its development? My Answer: Why yes... at least I think so... I don't really know the answer, but history has shown that Carrara only gets worked on, developmentally, during its development cycle. When that is... who really knows? I think that it may just be a time when the software engineers are freed up from working on DAZ Studio? Or something? Here's the thing:
"Carrara is dead"
That statement has been, from what it seems, very close to be true on many occasions as long as it's been in existence. DAZ 3D, from the way I understand it, acquired it to save it from truly dying - along with Hexagon.
As many here know, DAZ 3D began as a premium content house for Poser users. They've retained their status as one of the best ever since, and continue doing so. What you might not know is that they make a LOT MORE on content for Poser and DAZ Studio than they do on software. The real blessings, in my opinion, are that:
A - Content sales help to carry the Software, so that keeping the software at affordable prices can be better justified
B - Software helps to drive the Content sales, so in order to keep folks interested in the software, at least a certain level of development must be maintained. This especially holds true for DAZ Studio - the only software that DAZ 3D has developed on their own - the others were bought into the company. Luckily for us, Carrara and its Content has been maintaining a level of sales high enough to justify at least a certain degree of development.
C - DAZ 3D is ALWAYS on the lookout for talented new artists to join their ranks. Carrara is an excellent avenue for creating DAZ 3D content, whether it is made for use in Carrara or not. But the more cool content that we get in the store, the more attractive Carrara becomes to folks like me, customers whom enjoy purchasing content - and like software that works with content - so software with available content becomes more beneficial. This content doesn't have to have anything to do with anything that's currently available - or any of the figures... whatever. It just has to "Wow!" the boss when you send it in to him for consideration. If you can light and render really well... that helps tremendously. If you cannot, or would like a second opinion, ask a community member via PM if they would shoot some promos for you, in exchange for the product. Win/Win! When I made Starry Sky for Carrara, my friend wanted to test his system as a "Render Farm for Hire". He tested my product and made some absolutely stunning images. I tested his render farm - some of the action in my scrap movie "Just for Fun" were some of those tests. It turned out very well - and was a really fun experience overall.
So we can actually help to propel the Future of Carrara in more ways than by just word-of-mouth. We can use the popularity of DAZ 3D content to help shift some focus on Carrara - especially if you are one of us whom really believe Carrara to be a superior product for our needs. A project that turns out to be a real benefit in some way, might be cool enough to benefit others. Howie Farkes found out how elaborate and real a 3D scene can become, given the right dose of patience and determination. Then he found out that the rest of us are interested in his work in a big way! A total Win/Win! Buyer/Creator. But then it also generated another pair of Win!s: DAZ 3D Content Sales and DAZ 3D Software Sales, since his scenes have really made us take a good look at Carrara and, in my case, buy it. I love it when I get a PM from someone who enjoys one of my works enough to justify telling me so. I start all of my products as something cool that "I" really want/need, and then tweak it out to be even more flexible for anyone else. I began to see how cool Carrara is for this kind of thing. We can deliver a bunch of bits and materials and poses and modifiers... and then we can also produce examples in the form of fully realized scenes! Woodlands started out simply as a construction kit for building your own scenes. But when I made the first full scene preset, the gears started turning. Thirty presets later....
I'm referring principally to the ready availability of aniMate clips. Sure, they do what they are intended to do, that is move limbs and they do it well. Realistic human movement involves a lot more than just moving limbs. Human and animal movement also involves muscle movement, little twitches and individuality, which these do not have.
My point is that when you are using realistic humans, the viewers expect to see realistic movement - including the clothing. Anything else simply looks stilted and disappoints. When you use cartoon characters, viewers expect different movement that is similar to but not exactly human or animal, so you can let the imagination run wild.
In no way is this an exclusive Carrara failing - even the big studios don't try to use realistic humans. The last CG feature-film I saw which used humans was Polar Express and even that didn't even try to pretend that they were real humans.
Carrara does have shortcomings which makes it even more difficult to do good character animation than applications such as Blender, but even Blender couldn't do realistic human animations - simply because real human movements are too complex to imitate in CG as it is at this point in time.
As far as mocap is concerned, I would be pleasantly surprised to hear that C8.5 has been improved to be able to correctly import BVH. Using the CMU BVH, the best method up to C8.1 is to animate in DS and export as pz2.
Remember we are discussing the future of Carrara and I am saying that the future of Carrara as a character animator would be better served by bringing out a line of correctly rigged cartoon characters, rather than continuing to rely on realistic humans. These make great stills, but not animations.
If anyone can point me to a really good realistic human animation, made in Carrara or any other application, even of say 3 minutes, I will be most pleasantly surprised and eat my words :)
Dart - hope you are not referring to my post as saying that more expensive apps do a better job of producing good images - that is not what I implied at all :)
Actually there's a whole science to this thought, and the theory is that when "human" characters look almost but not quite human, it really freaks people out. Healthy, normal humans are fine, but stray just a little bit and people get disgusted. Almost human doesn't cut it.
There are some films that people believe failed mostly because the CG humans weren't close enough to human. They have this glassy-eyed, strange look that you can't put your finger on, but it just looks wrong. It's what they call the "uncanny valley", describing the valley in how people's comfort with near-human characters drops off the cliff if they're not close enough to human in how they look and move.
Some disagree to some extent, but we all know of almost-human characters that didn't quit cut it in movies...and we tend to dismiss it real quick and the film loses something.
Anyway, if you're gonna do it, you need to do an incredible job. That's one reason why you see so little of it. Hugely difficult, and viewers are insanely discerning of even the slightest irregularity. So dragging and dropping a pre-packaged motion capture on a drag and drop character and calling it good is extremely risky to say the least if you want viewers to enjoy it at all. There's a reason why the big studios avoid it....
And BTW, on the other hand, look at what Cameron and WETA did with Avatar. Very impressive, but they had a huge team and some excellent technology to do some incredible stuff. Yes, it can be done, but what went on behind the scenes with that production is mind-boggling.