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Oh boy!
I think the real thing is live now! To those who may have looked before and only found the image, please 'try now' ...
Using the above link, please find the great Carrara Shader Collection by Kirk Saavedra. The web-page descriptions/render samples are saved as PDF's in each folder.
Thanks to Kirk, UnifiedBrain, and rk66 for making this possible! It's a brilliant collection.
cheers,
--ms
Yes, is online now for download.
Original post at CC: http://carraracafe.com/news/new-shaders-for-carrara/
Download (about 33 Megs): http://carraracafe.com/downloads/?did=43
...and also thanks to mindsong
rk.
Just downloaded - all works fine, I uncompressed each folder of shaders and then moved any texture maps into the same folder as the shader so it can find them easily (ie. without user intervention). Looks like a very useful collection, thanks to those involved.
UB, Thanks very much for starting this thread... it is chock full of very useful inormation and more.
All Folks, I am grateful for all your input, ideas, suggestions... the list goes on, and on.
I'm aiming to be almost as good at animating as chicenman's daugter... and as helpful to others as the many here.
Happy Holidays to all. May the PA's always have products sell very well. May all your renders and projects be perfect.
Kirk (in making the shaders) and mindsong (in organizing and uploading the shaders) did all the heavy lifting. Two exemplars of the generosity repeatedly demonstrated by Carrara users.
And thanks to you, @wgdjohn. I do quite a bit of reading here. You are many miles ahead of me, and your fearless efforts and successes are very inspiring, whether you know it or not.
Thanks UB... I don't think I'm that far ahead... perhaps a yard or so. :) I've plenty of efforts that will not see the light of day until I learn how to do them correctly or stumble on something more presentable... even when I post a mistake it's only because I know not what I did wrong or go from there... regarding modeling or scene creation. Seems to me like everyone is light years ahead of me. :)
Carrara Rocks! - Modeling is Funnnnn!
That's why I have an art thread. I pretty much post it all there, the good, the bad, the ugly lol. Not only do I get lots of great feedback and have met some great people, but its really fun to look back to the beginning. Its really encouraging to see that hey, maybe I AM making some progress lol. even when it doesn't feel like it. And I also learn from all the other threads as well. This place is a virtual treasure trove of information. Not just the art threads but all of it. Just incredible.
Sonja, Absolutely agree... If only I had started reading the Forums years ago... I'd be a lot further along than I am now... I've beem playing catchup this past year. I'd never thought about my WGD Crazy Artwerks Art Studio thread like that... instead I used it in place of a Gallery page since I can add a better discription to my final rendered images. Perhaps I'll have to rethink that a bit.
Hello everyone!
About 3 years ago, I made 16 sets of fabric and leather Carrara shaderballs, and put them on my web as donation-ware. The donation was unspecified - $2 - $20 - a Carrara light set or mesh you made - one woman wrote and said she was going to knit me a pair of fingerless gloves. Lovely!
In reality, absolutely nothing was sent. So after a while I sorted myself out, admitted I worked for a week on junk, and pulled them from the web.
I have recently been emailed by someone calls him/herself "Unified Brain (UB)" concerning this forum page, and UB stated early on being a noob, so I answered the third email in polite and full explanation, the fourth less polite but still fully. And now I'm hoping someone is in charge of this forum, and can put some reigns on this UB.
I do have the emails like anyone would care - I think everything will be plain enough here - this was going to be my next reply, but then I decided to just put it here and then I can't be slammed behind my back for not being a good member of the community. Like I would ever be a member of a club who would have someone like me for a member (Groucho Marx):
***** You're right - "it is not super difficult to create your own shaders in Carrara".
It is also not super difficult to cut and polish a gem nor make a gold ring for it. So the next time you need a gift for a woman in your life, just go to your workshed and whip one up.
As for your self-appointed duty? donation? whatever - of cataloging Carrara stuff for the "community", Dartanbeck did that extremely well a couple of years ago on a DAZ forum, and so have a few others, like rk66 did one for the CarraraCafe.
There is no point to your crusade of bringing back dead Carrara stuff. An artist will often pull something free or for sale from the web, for various reasons. Often, it needs to be totally re-worked either due to advancements in skill, or more likely newer and differently formatted software.
Many of these things remain off the web because they are not worth re-working. So unless you are ready to pony up some cash for the effort - maybe when you find something no longer available, you just trust the artist knows it better than you, and let it be.
Thank you so much for wasting my time and aggravating a forgotten embarrassment over something "you don't need, haven't even opened", and isn't worth anything anyway.
Ya wanna "contribute to the community" so much? Get off my email and MAKE something your own self and give it away.
And UB..... I think I've been a fair member of the community - I put How2 films for the Stitch Witch on the YouTube long ago, and NOT monetized. They are still live, even though I was recently asked because of them to pirate the program. I had another set planned of doing like drop shadows and adding more depth and realism, but the makers took the Witch off the web about that time, so little reason to, although I still consider it. The Witch is still a quite viable program. You wouldn't be interested, it was not free.
And you would know little things like that if you had bothered to research my work at all past some antique post on the Carrara Cafe. I'm NexySaloon on the YouTube and I've even got a Carrara animation on there, see "Tuna". It is not real good and I plan to re-do it soon, but it ain't totally junk either. And my web that badly needs its once a year updating (January is its time) is decarlojewelryart.
You're lazy UB. Carrara is for people who do NOT want to buy (oops, in your case get for free) some pre-packaged complete scene, do a render, and call themselves an artist. Think on that. *****
Ok, let's do something fun! I know a lot of DS people won't touch a mesh over a year old. But I ain't DS people. I think some of the way old DAZ stuff is brilliant. So this is the 1002 Nights, and I loved the DreamLight party kit, but those lights worked in Carrara about as well as a steam engine with no water.
So my original intent was obvious, but then I got to adding, subtracting, moving, color gelling lights, and ended up re-making the whole thing - but still credit to DreamLight for the inspire!
I actually have 5 different times of day set up, but I won't fill the page here, just these two.
And the last one is Christmas Carol by Redhouse, re-floored, lit and made cozy for Tuna's workshop, with his model kits neatly on his shelves. - Ciao! Rebecca De Carlo aka NexySaloon
edited post
there are a bunch of lovely helpful people who frequent here more than willing to assist anyone no recompense asked as Unified Brain has already found.
I just always remember I was once a noob too and encountered a person who many revered but I found quite frankly obnoxious who told me to RTFM, it was his favourite line!
thank god we now have Dartanbeck who writes us manuals on the forum!!!
I swore I would never be like that other guy as never wanted anyone to feel as hurt as I did.
If you wish to give a gift you do so ungrudgingly otherwise just set up a commercial site and charge for downloads its that simple,
117 pages of DAZ content illustrates my own willingness to buy stuff but yes I do grab freebies too and say thank you,
I didn't say things went bad for me. I said I made junky shaders. Oops!
I said I've got someone driving me to make them available again, and I do not wish to.
And your idea of a simple no is not working - he just sent another email a few minutes ago, which I replied to with the best advice I know of.
I may well be grumpy - I dunno. Mostly I'm trying to get to a good stopping point on a film tonight.
Sorry to double post here but I now have another two emails. No one has ever used the stupid shaders that I know of, no one thinks they're worth bothering with, the member above is apparently going to delete if he has them and he doesn't even know. And yet every 3 or 4 months someone from somewhere makes me crazy over them.
UB has already said he has no use for them, but is still insisting I "keep my word" that was given due to false pretenses, and make them available again. Why??? No one wants them. This is nuts.
I am not a usual forum member. I don't have anything to contribute. I am not a Carrara genius. I know how to do the little things I do, and that's all I know. I have been asked back when I fooled with chatrooms "Great lighting, how did you do that?" and "Can I have that file for my DS?" No to the 2nd because I don't know DS. And for the first - here is my fantastic advice - I don't know. I put a few lights in the scene and start moving them around and changing attributes until things just "feel right", and I pride myself on knowing when to stop. It's trial and error, plain dumb blonde luck.
There. That is all I have to share, pathetique though it is, not what a noob wants to hear I'm sure.
I also don't have any questions. No tips or tricks to learn. Carrara does what I want it to do, and I know how to make it do that, and I'm happy.
So I have nothing to share, no tips to teach, no questions to ask, and no comments to make. If that changes one day I may click in. I may not. I don't know. I do know I'm done with answering emails from anyone, ever, about those sorry shaders. Goodnight. - R
sorry,I was a bit harsh having not read the emails you were sent,
I was under the impression the lack of donations was your reason for pulling them from your post and was reacting to that,
A few have said on this and other 3D forums a lack of generosity from users of their freebies causes them disapointment
but the cold hard fact is if something is freely offered most freely take it.
If getting reimbursed for ones work is the motivation its best to simply sell it in the first place.
I personally avoid freebies of any sort be it 3D stuff, music, software etc if any whiff of obligation is associated with them prefering to pay a fee to have a clear license of use.
I will edit my previous post in light of your further explaination.
I've had enough. Pardon the length of this, but I am tired of getting attacked and having my motives and actions completely mischaracterized.
I've sent four emails - in total - to Rebecca this week. She makes it sound like I am hounding her, which is completely false.
The first email was a (gentle) reminder that she had agreed, and seeminly eagerly so, to repost her shaders two weeks ago.
"Hi Rebecca,
I suspect that you are super busy, but I just wanted to let you know that we are looking forward to your shaders. :-)
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!"
She then unexpectedly changed her tone, saying that she was feeling unappreciated because she had never received a dime for them. However, she said that she was "open to thoughts and ideas," so I responded. Big mistake.
This was my 2nd email that unexpectedly set her off:
"Hi Rebecca,
I appreciate your directness, thanks.
If you don't mind, I will also be direct.
I wasn't aware that you were still asking a donation for your shaders. I saw the words "donation-ware" at the top, but there were no instructions on how to donate, so I just assumed that you were now giving them away for free. If I had known that you were expecting a donation, I probably would have skipped the whole thing - not because they were worthless, but because of my current goal.
I am new to Carrara, so finding these free resources and their authors is one of the few ways that I can contribute to the Carrara community - at least at this point.
In my experience so far, there seems to be little demand for third party Carrara shaders if money is involved. And the free shaders out there are actually pretty nice. For example, I recently contacted Kirk Saavedra who made the Weebly shaders several years ago. They had disappeared, and he agreed to release them once again. They are now up on Carrara Cafe:
http://carraracafe.com/downloads/?did=43
Next I contacted a Carrara user named kaz42, and found where he had posted a hard-to-find link to the free Nobiax shaders (over 300), and I shared that with the forum.
In total, that was a bunch of shaders!
Part of the shader deal - or so I have been told by experienced Carrara users - is that it is not super difficult to create your own shaders in Carrara. Plus, Carrara already comes with a bunch of shaders. So unless you are making something really unique - maybe like Ringos skin shaders for Genesis 2 - I doubt that there is much of a market for a general fabric or other material shader products.
That said, I have no idea how to make shaders, so I always look forward to trying new ones. Honestly, I haven't used any of your shaders yet. They are still in the download folder. If I start using them, and you are still looking for donations, I will send you a few bucks if you give me a physical address.
In summary, I think that I understand your current situation and feelings. From my newbie perspective, since the donation-ware thing didn't work too well, you have two realistic choices - either keep the products to yourself, or release them for free. But there seems to be very little market for Carrara shaders, free or otherwise. For example, the Weebly shaders have only been downloaded 9 times since their release 4 days ago. And those, of course, are free.
So, if you are looking at the sheer numbers, there is not much of a reason to release your shaders. But if the gratitude of a few people is meaningful to you, then releasing them is obviously worthwhile. And if time spent coding a website is a concern, I'm sure that someone will gratefully post your shaders at Carrara Cafe, if you are so inclined.
Either way, I have appreciated this opportunity to get your perspective. Many thanks for the detailed and frank response. I wish there was a way you could make money here with your efforts, but I'm not seeing much possibility. Then again, you likely need to take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Best of luck in your semi-retirement - although, we all know that an artist never fully retires. :-)"
From this email, she concluded that I was calling her shaders worthless. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are a lot of great products out there that are offered for free.
From this email, she concluded that since I had never actually used her shaders, that I was merely a greedy person who hoards free stuff. In my 3rd email to her - after receiving insults and verbal abuse - I tried to explain. I told her that I had not tried her shaders yet because I didn't know how to load them in Carrara. And that further, I was not advanced enough to use them (I'm doing Phil's tutorials and he hasn't got to shaders yet). She ignored what I said.
And now I come on here today only to find that she has decided to drag a private email "discussion" online.
This is something that I would normally never do. But I also sleep very well at night knowing that I am very consistent in my public and private posts. If she wants to post the entire email conversation, I am good with that. I already sent her a 4th and final email last night, so from this point I will address her here only. If she deletes her posts, I will delete mine as well.
Life is way too short for this kind of stuff.
Thanx 3Ddigit you're a gem, and I'm with you that I do not use free stuff, except for when the artist is a friend or I've done some small work on a projekt and the artist makes me a gift of it personally.
You have highlighted that I should have been more clear when I first put them out. They came to be because a friend in England asked me to show him how to make shaderballs, and through the process of doing this, they just sort of evolved. So they were originally kind of a how to thing. He was so happy with them, I thought someone else might want them too, so I made 2 or 3 sets available, and Dartanbeck who I very much respect wrote "you R O C K !!!". So I made some more sets. It was very much fun!
I did not intend for them to be confusing or have any whiff of unknown obligation. It was like Yes, you must pay for them, but I do not know what they are worth, don't care really, so you may set your own price. I will be happy with whatever you decide, $1... $10... whatever comes in.
I'm learning same like aren't we all? I believe the market will tell you what something is worth, and then you can decide if you want to carry on for that amount. I learned they are worth nothing, zero, so I need not waste any more Friday nights making Carrara stuff. Market say I am not good at it.
What I hope now is to go a whole 3 months without someone driving me to let the CarraraCafe "host them for me". I have a website, I do not need the CarraraCafe to host anything, do not want the CarraraCafe to host anything, but mostly do not want to be pushed about it every few weeks.
They are off the web by my hand right now. That does not mean that I have abandoned them, nor that people are free to distribute them, just covering that angle because I know some think that way. I may put them up again one day, I may not, this is not of concern to me right now. But whatever I do they are mine to do with.
So I was having tea with my consigliere friend a while ago, and that little bit of legalese makes him happy. He also mentioned that anyone who wants to boycott me or delete them in anger with me because I do not wish to donate to UB nor the CarraraCafe, should indeed delete them. Because as donation-ware, anyone who did not send anything at all has no license to use them, nor cause to keep them.
I send everyone here best wishes on your projekts, best wishes to finding new tricks Carrara can do but doesn't know it, LOL, and I want to say that I did not wake up intending to click up this page, but I am happy I did. I hope all is understandable now, and I will return to my reclusive norm. - Rebecca Armand De Carlo aka NexySaloon, 4 December 2016, DAZ forum post
Your suspicion that I would "slam you behind you back" speaks volumes about who you are. Why you seek to demonize me and my efforts is anyone's guess.
1. If you had declared your true feelings after my first email, this would have all been completely avoided.
2. The quotes you used above are totally false. I never said that I don't need or want your shaders. And before you posted the above, I had already explained to you - very specifically - why I hadn't opened them.
I have stopped responding to you, as I said I would. But you have contined to send me emails - three to be exact - and entreated me to keep responding. Please stop sending them.
And you are misinformed. Read the forum. A lot of people here use prepackaged content. Plus, you casually brand me as "lazy" without knowing who I am in the least. And that is one of the more mild things that you have accused me of.
Enough. I don't seek arguments. But when someone starts to disparage my motives, or falsely accuses me of stuff, I will respond.
It seems that things have got very heated over this. I do not think it is lazy to use pre-packaged content, whether paid or free, sometimes it is becuase you could not do it yourself, sometimes it is just a time saver - it can be worth paying say $10 if that means that you can avoid hours of work and get on with other aspects of your project.
Rebecca - if you want to get some sort of return for your work, the best way would be to put a price on it, and maybe have sales to determine the level at which it sells. Please don't be put off from making your products available - although I would say that if you make it possible for people to get it without paying anything, there will always be some people who are going to take advantage of that (hopefully no-one here). Anyone who has tried selling stuff for Carrara, or indeed anything else, will find that some things sell much better than others, and sometimes it is hard to determine why. It does not mean that you are not good at it or that it isn't of value - different people will have different values that they would put on it.
I hope that this is just a misunderstanding that can be resolved amicably.
I have some experience of "donationware" in other realms (flight simulation), and it's fairly consistent that if you ask for donations or "pay what you want" or however you want to phrase it, well over 99% won't donate anything. It's just human nature: if people think they can get away without paying for something, they won't pay for it. In over 100,000 downloads over 8 or so years (metered through various download loggers) I reckon on average that maybe 1 person in 500 makes any kind of donation, and that could be as little as $0.50 (30 cents after Paypal takes its cut, which at the time was about 20p in English money!) or as much as $100 (in one case)
My take on all that is that a lack of donations doesn't mean that people aren't interested or don't like your offering, it just means people are being people. If you really want them to pay, you have to make them pay. Otherwise, by and (very) large, they won't. No matter how good they think it is or how good you think it is.
As Phil said, some things will always turn out to be more popular than others, and not always for any discernable reason. But in the free/donationware market the ony real tool you have to judge an item's popularity is the number of times it's downloaded. And for that you need some kind of download counter (there are loads around, either as Wordpress plugins or for other common web front ends)
Hey Phil, good to see you!
My "lazy" comment has been taken wrong by apparently everyone, and it is not worth trying to explain better so I will apologize for it, and make note that I use pre-packaged content too - check the credits on my Tuna films. The light kit I made for 1002 nights fits an old DAZ interior. And on.
As far as selling - people who buy 3D gear want to download and use it now while they're excited about it. This is good. In order to do the various things I enjoy, I have simplified my life. I will not waste time rigging a shopping cart. I will never again deal with paypal, who for a while now have dominated online sales, and payloadz is a division of same.
I had an idea that did not work. People could download my stuff and use it now, drop a check in the mail for whatever amount suited them, and at their time convenience. My life remains simple, and the people cannot be disappointed at the cost because they determined the cost AFTER trying the thing out.
I've heard the excuses "I didn't see your address to send money". Come on! It's on every page of my web except the galleries themselves where the shaders were shown off. Try the "HomePage" button. My email isn't in those galleries either but enough people have sure managed to find that!
I've heard "I was unclear on donation-ware". My consigliere about spilled his tea laughing on that one. What do I have to do - clog my web with disclaimers and explanations of the obvious? Donation-ware - send me a few dollars - send me some 3D software you made - send me a bag of minty M&Ms - knit me a pair of fingerless gloves - send me the latest copy of Heavy Metal magazine - for those who want to do everything online with a card, gift me a PC game, I'm a member of GOG, Stream, and GamersGate - use your imagination.
This discussion can only end one of two ways. 1 - my work was worthless because the people decided and nothing came in. 2 - A large segment of the 3D community think that "anything on the web should be free".
I once agreed with the ancient Greek belief that knowledge should be free. Today's world, being SO heavy on intellectual property has made that ideal rather cloudy. I do not know exactly what I think of it at this time. I will let the Harvard grads who have half a mil in education and apprentice time and living expenses and setting up a business / office sort that one out.
But while shaders and meshes are intellectual property, they are not knowledge, and even though "Carrara shaders are not super difficult to make", they still take time. Yes, I want some compensation for that time, even if it's only a dollar's worth of recognition or a chocolate bar (send that in the winter please!).
Since the bulk of the 3D community does not agree with that, I quietly left the room a couple of years ago. I do not expect the community to change it's mind. But I will not be pushed and guilted to do free with "be a part" or "help the community" rhetoric.
UB said clearly that if he had known they were not free he would have never written. So read UB. The gallery page said donation-ware, we've covered that both in the emails you sliced and diced, and here in this forum. They are not free. Were not free. But on you write.....
I tried, I failed, my shaders are currently off the market, I wish I had never made them, mostly because of grief like this, and this is not the first time. Other projekts I had in mind will probably be deleted and forgotten this afternoon.
I do not belong here. I will remain in the world I grew up in of music, film, and gems. I am sorry for any and all aggravation I have caused. But I have to say on my way out - all this over some shader sets? Really?!?
And thanx TangaAlpha, yes you're right on the ball.
I just prefer to live in a gentler or maybe I should say more logical world than what all this online stuff has let itself become.
in other news... Australia creamed the Kiwis in the cricket ODI yesterday
Kiwi is a fruit and is both singular and plural... a cricket is a noisey insect that is used to catch fish. :)
I'm really sorry Rebecca - for my part.
When you hear the term "Starving Artist"... yeah... that's me.
One day that will all change and I hope to fix a good many things. I try to 'pay' in other ways - as much as I can.
Shaders are one of those things. We don't always 'see' exactly what people use and what they don't. I almost never use shaders exactly as they are, either from the example browser, Yours, Ringo's, PhilW's, 3Dage's, Indigone's, Kirk Saavedra's, evilproducer's, Desert Dude's, MAT Creator's, mmoir's, drawbridge_p's, GKDantas', Dimension Theory's, BTL's, Sparrowhawke's, Eric from DCG's, Inagoni's, Fenric's, 3DLUST's, Tim Payne's, Howie Farke's, 3D Celebrity's, TangoAlpha's, Magaremoto's, Age of Armour's... or even my own.
Also, one shader might be used for a big piece of cloth, while another might be used on only a small ring or stone or something else that's almost hidden due to so much stuff in the scene.
I find your shaders to be a wonderful addition. It's always cool to have a bunch to choose from - especially when working with things whose materials are totally up in the air - undecided.
My issue with using a bunch of them from collected sets that I've gathered over the years is that I am one of those odd people whom truly enjoys Rick-Click > New Master Shader - and start from scratch to make something from scratch out of my imagination. The Texture Room is absolutely one of my favorite parts of Carrara.
I do love to take shaders from you and all of those folks mentioned above (and more - I'm sure my tired brain is missing plenty of names from that list!) and take a look at how they're set up and ALWAYS get inspiration about how to do something at least a little differently.
As comortable as I am in that work shop, I'm always learning new things and being completely lost and blown away by others - like some of DCG's and Inagoni's sample shaders... tearing them apart to see what drives them requires a much deeper exploration than what I am often capable of without taking enough time to grab a notebook and
takes some extensive notes. Some of these plugins add calculations that are a bit over my head without having some sort of better instructions as to how to use them.
Did that last part make sense? It got wordy... and I'm really tired! LOL
When I found this magazine I've found some cool articles - Eric W from DCG even gives some tutorials in there - which help
3DXTRACT E-Zine thread, here in the forums (with link to download the complete collection)
Anyways, I'm babbling now.
I really hope you don't truly believe yourself about your shaders not being up-to-snuff. Take it back!
Very cool that these are back online!
Thanks all!
I do not have them BTW so cannot judge, donationware would have put me off most likely esp if not Paypal, I do not use my credit card willy nilly on sites all over the web.
Putting them up on say Renderosity with a price tag will prob get you a better outcome, even though they grab half you will actually see some money and avoid any feelings of worthlessness etc.
I think it's because of Platinum Club... a while ago I scored Centurian Troop Carrier for two bucks, and also got the Uranus Mission expansion pack for two full texture swaps for it.
Well, Carrara being what it is... and 8.5 getting the new Multi-Layer inputs for shader channels, I decided to blend the two Uranus Mission texture options together to make a cool new look.
Tweaking the shaders a bit more and I've really come to love this model!
The guns are really cool and have a ball-like control to them, so they have some really nice freedom for aiming. I'm using the engine fire from petipet's Harpoon Star Ship's rockets - which are in the library as props. Since I'm using a blue engine glow (and like the blue) and the fire props are red/orange/yellow, I inverted the color of the color map and got a really nice blue - blue/green combination. Too bad we can't see the engine fire in this shot.
It looked cool in its own empty scene, but I didn't want to put that in my gallery, and I had recently optimized petipet's Oberon Station in a Badlands scene with Starry Sky - so I opened that and dragged my newly optimized version of Centurian Troop Carrier - posed it into the main camera and then used Fenric's awesome Tree Duplicate, which allows us to quickly duplicate rigged figures, and placed the new ones in the formation I had envisioned after I placed the first one.
Anyways... I've always been pleased to be a Platinum Club member and I don't see that changing any time soon ;)
Hey @unifiedbrain, just let that one go. done - never happened. Let this thread fade into time.
It's not worth dignifying this person any longer - not even with the time of day.
Your intent was and continues to be for a good cause: preserving effort and value that might otherwise be lost to the dustbin of Carrara history. This wasn't a simple misunderstanding, someone needed to vent and you inadverdantly opened the valve.
Trust me, everyone following this thread clearly sees and knows what just happened. Bummer, but ever forward (I need to watch more cricket on the tele).
Let's start a new dedicated thread that tracks your progress and curiosities.
Take heart UB, your cause and intent are appreciated. Thank you.
be well,
--ms
Well said, mindsong!
Silene
+1
