Commerical Products forum gone?

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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:
    The irony of these last few pages is not lost on us.

    Here are customers on the DAZ forums discussing how they can set up their own forums and take their discussions elsewhere.

    Wanting to do it in order to be free of any business restrictions whatsoever is one thing, using the DAZ forums to plan and gain support for it is another.


    The irony is lost on me. You might think this ironic if my only issue was commercial posting, but that's not the case. There are many other topics we can't talk about here.

    Also, this isn't about revenge. It's about freedom of expression and protest. This is like me walking into a restaurant with some friends whilst discussing rather loudly how to set up an alternative... restaurant or something (I'm too tired for this). The restaurant owner would be free to kick me out, and so are you.

    There was a time when DAZ was my #1 favorite company, because as far as I was concerned you had cool products and impeccable service. But then things started going downhill, and I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable with... well, various things. I'm not leaving, nor am I encouraging anyone else to do so. This is simply no longer the kind of place where I feel like relaxing and having a laugh while not having to worry too much about the forbidden subject of the week.

    Very well stated.

    I'm not going anywhere either. I don't have the time to hunt down an alternative forum. DAZ is a one stop forum and store but yea, the new rule of the week is increasingly becoming more of a hindrance. I'm not sure what Gestapo that DAZ has installed but THEY need to go. Many of these new rules and regulations are not helping to keep your forum members here happy. Cutting off good 3rd party and even a few folks that were selling here (and at other places too) was not wise, no matter how you slice that cake. You want to talk about irony, when it's kicking you in the butt and we are ALL let down in the long run, then it's going to hit home for DAZ3D as well as it's community members, customers not to mention the merchants your trying SO HARD to support. Ever occur to you that some of these merchants here might not be really that pleased with what's come to pass in these past days. Friends being ousted unceremoniously?

    Excuse me. I need to go take care of my client....

  • mrsparkymrsparky Posts: 248
    edited December 1969

    Being a old hand in poserdom, I think the reality of creating an external forum as popular as daz is simple,
    While the good folks discussing it mean well, it won't happen. Never has. Never well.

    As I see it, it's simple as. Us little people make addons, often free, for daz products. Customers buy from daz as a result of those addons. We advertise and promote daz stuff. Yes, daz gives us publicity in return. Note the little there, because thats what we are, little not big nasty rival corporations. So yes we do actually want to be here.

    Also being realistic here, just how 'traffic' does a small site get from daz. 50% of that external sites total traffic, 12%, 100%? Reality? Not that much.

    Does every external link from daz result in massive sales for the one-man band and a loss for daz? Nope. Basically by disallowing discussion of other sites, free or commercial, you're losing and alienating customers. Look at the bad blood here for that.

    So really the BIG question is what can be done that allows the symbiotic relationship thats existed until this week to carry on. Note the fancy word there, because thats what this has been. We all win from this, so why risk losing it. Why don't we work together instead of fighting?

    If it's about cash, then I'd be happy to pay for a membership that allowed such posts as long as it's a reasonable amount and I'm sure others would as well. Which would also increase Daz's coffers.

    If thats an exclusive forum, and no where else thats cool, in fact it would make it easier for everyone. Mods wouldn't have to police and make unpopular decisions. Customers have a choice to look or not. Creators know what the rules are.

    So please daz listen to the people who work with you. Please ?

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 712
    edited December 1969

    mrsparky said:
    Being a old hand in poserdom, I think the reality of creating an external forum as popular as daz is simple,
    While the good folks discussing it mean well, it won't happen. Never has. Never well.

    It's not a popularity contest but you're right, any new forum is unlikely to succeed. I suspect most people who come here are oblivious or indifferent about the issues that inspired this little endeavor.
  • mrsparkymrsparky Posts: 248
    edited December 1969

    Yea I'd agree there araneldon. Though to me the whole situ seems sad, shouldn't we all be working together to find a solution that benefits everyone? Moreso now than ever as it's so tight for everyone.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    mrsparky said:

    So really the BIG question is what can be done that allows the symbiotic relationship thats existed until this week to carry on. Note the fancy word there, because thats what this has been. We all win from this, so why risk losing it. Why don't we work together instead of fighting?

    Simple...fire the fancy consultants with the fancy degrees and go back to the basics that made your business what it was.

  • ameesa001@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 282
    edited December 1969

    I read what is happening with a very, very troubled mind. But not troubled from DAZ's decision. I'm troubled because I remember something I saw in one of the commercial threads last year and wondered at the time why it was allowed. I don't think DAZ had a choice anymore. I know I may be villified and labeled "fanboi", but I can't give much for details without naming names, and a year or so later I can't verify things. I may also be remembering wrong. But if I'm remembering correctly, then I have to side with DAZ in their decision. If I'm wrong the decision has been made regardless.

  • randym77randym77 Posts: 275
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:

    This has been R.com's policy forever... they don't allow any commercial linking, or freeware linking, for that matter, to other sites.

    Not forever. They used to allow products sold anywhere to be advertised in the Market Showcase forum. I don't remember when they started restricting it to just products sold at Rosity, but I kinda stopped visiting that forum after they did that. What's the point? If it's going to be sold at Rosity, I'll see it in the Marketplace anyway.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,754
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    araneldon said:
    The irony of these last few pages is not lost on us.

    Here are customers on the DAZ forums discussing how they can set up their own forums and take their discussions elsewhere.

    Wanting to do it in order to be free of any business restrictions whatsoever is one thing, using the DAZ forums to plan and gain support for it is another.


    The irony is lost on me. You might think this ironic if my only issue was commercial posting, but that's not the case. There are many other topics we can't talk about here.

    Also, this isn't about revenge. It's about freedom of expression and protest. This is like me walking into a restaurant with some friends whilst discussing rather loudly how to set up an alternative... restaurant or something (I'm too tired for this). The restaurant owner would be free to kick me out, and so are you.

    There was a time when DAZ was my #1 favorite company, because as far as I was concerned you had cool products and impeccable service. But then things started going downhill, and I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable with... well, various things. I'm not leaving, nor am I encouraging anyone else to do so. This is simply no longer the kind of place where I feel like relaxing and having a laugh while not having to worry too much about the forbidden subject of the week.

    Very well stated.

    I'm not going anywhere either. I don't have the time to hunt down an alternative forum. DAZ is a one stop forum and store but yea, the new rule of the week is increasingly becoming more of a hindrance. I'm not sure what Gestapo that DAZ has installed but THEY need to go. Many of these new rules and regulations are not helping to keep your forum members here happy. Cutting off good 3rd party and even a few folks that were selling here (and at other places too) was not wise, no matter how you slice that cake. You want to talk about irony, when it's kicking you in the butt and we are ALL let down in the long run, then it's going to hit home for DAZ3D as well as it's community members, customers not to mention the merchants your trying SO HARD to support. Ever occur to you that some of these merchants here might not be really that pleased with what's come to pass in these past days. Friends being ousted unceremoniously?

    Excuse me. I need to go take care of my client....

    We ALL are not let down, so don't go speaking for me. I have no issues with what is going on. I am a customer, I get good products, I get good prices and I get good support, that is what i should expect as a customer from a business. Personally, i feel it is in VERY poor taste to talk about starting a new forum to get away from DAZ on their own forums. it;s the same as being at someones house and complaining that they are a bad host and you want to take the party to another house because of it, Poor taste indeed but that will probably be lost on many here since it's always a ME attitude whenever DAZ does something an entitled user doesn't like and then it is bring out the pitchforks. I don't like the moderation here at times, i don't like some of the touchy subject matter talked about considering it's supposed to be a PG type of site, I don't like not being able to talk politics at times, but I don't go on a rampage against DAZ because of it. Funny thing is, at the poser forum at rendo, the inmates run the asylum, which it what it looks like is trying to happen here..

    the stupid restaurant protest analogy just adds to me siding with DAZ more since i come from the owner side of that and have had to kick patrons out that thought the rules didn't apply to them (not as many times as i would have liked I might add)

    I don't know Cath and frankly it is none of my(our) business what happened, but she has her own store, I like her products and plan to support her still. It's not like DAZ is the only store in town.

    I already visit enough forums in this community and get all the info I need from them, so I have no need to join another one

  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,800
    edited February 2013

    Okay, I'm just NOW finding this thread.

    My... This IS something, huh? Well, in all honesty, I can't argue DAZ on that one. I know some companies have courtesy recommendations advertised with their competition, but from marketing standpoint, DAZ really is thinking of the PA's while re-strategizing their own profit with this move. You got to at least admit that DAZ DOES care about their contributors, like how they excluded PA products from the PC coupons so they can get full charge for their patronage.

    Really, I don't see what the big fuss is. Upset that you or your favorite PA can't advertise non-DAZ-hosted content anymore? Look them up on Renderocity. Want to know about a non-DAZ-hosted product that's featured in a render? Ask them directly in Privet Message. Can't promote your own store here anymore? Create your own outlets. DAZ_anna is right, make a business page somewhere and put yourself out there. Take initiative and play the game like everyone else...

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 712
    edited February 2013

    We ALL are not let down, so don't go speaking for me. I have no issues with what is going on. I am a customer, I get good products, I get good prices and I get good support, that is what i should expect as a customer from a business. Personally, i feel it is in VERY poor taste to talk about starting a new forum to get away from DAZ on their own forums. it;s the same as being at someones house and complaining that they are a bad host and you want to take the party to another house because of it, Poor taste indeed but that will probably be lost on many here since it's always a ME attitude whenever DAZ does something an entitled user doesn't like and then it is bring out the pitchforks. I don't like the moderation here at times, i don't like some of the touchy subject matter talked about considering it's supposed to be a PG type of site, I don't like not being able to talk politics at times, but I don't go on a rampage against DAZ because of it. Funny thing is, at the poser forum at rendo, the inmates run the asylum, which it what it looks like is trying to happen here..

    the stupid restaurant protest analogy just adds to me siding with DAZ more since i come from the owner side of that and have had to kick patrons out that thought the rules didn't apply to them (not as many times as i would have liked I might add)


    I already edited my original post earlier to admit that the restaurant analogy was rubbish, and as expected you missed the point.

    There is no rampage but rather a discussion about setting up an alternate forum to discuss things -- like the ones you mention -- that aren't allowed here. It's not about leaving a party, it's about having a different kind of party where one doesn't necessarily take away from the other. Well, not everything anyway. This is still the place to be when I want to buy things or talk about buying things, but sometimes I might like to go and have the kind of fun that isn't compatible with DAZ's business interests.

    Edit: To fix your flawed (though not nearly as terrible as mine) analogy: the guests leave because they want to have a theme party and the host insists on gagging anyone who says a word about the theme.

    TL;DR The intent was not to offend or hurt anyone's feelings, or propose that DAZ's forums need to be replaced completely with something better.

    Post edited by araneldon on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    PC coupons never affected PA's part of the profit, they were good only on up to 50% of the price, which was DAZ3D part.

  • mrsparkymrsparky Posts: 248
    edited February 2013

    "Take initiative and play the game like everyone else"

    No offence, but you're missing the important point, content creators already do that, artists tend to come to 2 community's tops.

    Like FSMCDesigns says....

    "I already visit enough forums in this community and get all the info I need from them, so I have no need to join another one"

    So if they ain't going anywhere else how will you get your message across? Forget deviant art, facebook, linkedin or youtube, they are too big and impossible to get seen. Thats why we need daz's help and in return we help daz. It's that simple. So why change it.

    I'd also bet that those feeling that content creators are "entitled users", have happily downloaded and used 3d party content. Which you wouldn't have found if it wasn't here. But from now you won't, so you'll be losing out as well.

    Post edited by mrsparky on
  • Proxima ShiningProxima Shining Posts: 969
    edited December 1969

    The irony of these last few pages is not lost on us.

    Here are customers on the DAZ forums discussing how they can set up their own forums and take their discussions elsewhere.

    Wanting to do it in order to be free of any business restrictions whatsoever is one thing, using the DAZ forums to plan and gain support for it is another.

    We want to share information that we used to share here in DAZ forum, but are no longer allowed to. So we want to find or create a place where we can do that. Then we will post in DAZ forum only things that DAZ allows us to post and all the other not allowed things we can post at the other place. This is what DAZ company wants us to do, so where is the irony in that? If we were allowed to post them here, we would.

    You complained in this thread that DAZ is not getting enough traffic from links from other websites that would refference/promote their products - a forum like this could be a solution, since many links there would lead to DAZ products or addons that require DAZ products to work.

    But of course I would still prefer if it would be possible to have all that in DAZ forum, as it used to be. It would be much better for me as a customer. DAZ could even change it to paid promotion, I think it would be worth for non-DAZ vendors (or at least for some of them) to pay to be able to promote their products at such a big site as DAZ.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,086
    edited February 2013

    I think it would be worth for non-DAZ vendors (or at least for some of them) to pay to be able to promote their products at such a big site as DAZ.

    I agree. For ad space at Rendo you pay to promote you product so I do not think its a bad idea. Only difference is that you are an existing Vendor..But Daz could rent out thread space here to non Daz PA's:) If that was the rule in the first place I would have paid since the traffic volumes here are so great and is good exposure.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • ba_aca2a9241dba_aca2a9241d Posts: 55
    edited February 2013

    You know what? Everyone is loosing out this way. Vendors because it is yet again harder to promote new items. Buyers because they lost a central place to get information. Now it's scattered all over the place and much harder to find new stuff. DAZ because a lot of the external items drive people towards DAZ figures, we all know that's the case. What? That outfit is only for DAZ figure XXXX? Man, I've got to get that figure. Also when looking at the DAZ store one gets the impression that all Genesis is good for is erotic images...... Breast movement, seriously? Yoga poses with the tiniest bikini that is allowed? Enviroments with a sensual Genesis that completely distracts? While there is so much more to the DAZ figures, but the venue to show that has been closed now.

    There could have been 2 forums, one for DAZ PA's and one for external vendors. But no, as usual in the content world the blunt axe has been used. Chop off the limps you don't like and let's hope the rest will survive, not realising that what's left will slowly bleed to death.

    But, in the end we can cry havoc as much as we like, but from history we know nothing will change and the whole being exlcusive will go on and on. I think by now every store selling poser/ds content has become exlusive. And we all wonder why people buy less and less......

    Anyway, i wish DAZ all the best, it's obvious that we're not welcome here anymore. Sell you stuff through us or leave, I get the message. Time to move on. time to find new figures to create items for, DAZ doesn't want me to point some new customers in their direction. you don't want to know how many times people have asked, what the figure you use in your promos? What figure are these items for? Every time I pointed them towards DAZ and the Toon Generation. But no more, I've got the luxury of choosing a different figure, since any toon figure is in need of content, but from now on DAZ figures will be excluded from my work..... I get the hint, don't worry.

    Post edited by ba_aca2a9241d on
  • edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    there's also the Artist Space at www.free3dcontent.net .... they allow commercial posts, as well as general discussions and also have onsite freebie hosting and off-site freebie linking. Membership is free and they provide forums for WIP works (commercial/non commercial are allowed) discussion, commercial adverts and other subjects.. there are also galleries to display your works, and each member also has his/her own private studio area to blog about themselves and their projects...

    Joined hours ago, they're taking forever to approve my membership :(

    It looks to me as if they only have a very small number of members. It´s the same people posting over and over, often without anyone else ever reacting to their posts.

    Actually, Free3dcontent.net has over 1600 registered members. The forums have recently been opened up to the general public. And, the old forum, which died during a site update, had over 4000 posts. It was too much to try and port over. I know this because I am the Admin.

    Wancow: Sorry for being slow on getting the members activations out. I've been working like crazy on a new 3D content magazine I hope to have available soon. If you signed up and didn't get your activation email, be sure to let me know.

    Chrisschell: Thank you so much for the reference.

    Anyone and everyone is welcome to post about your new product, old products, website, artwork or anything else at free3dcontent.net

    Hope to see you there.

  • HeatherleeaHeatherleea Posts: 247
    edited February 2013

    Cath has also opened up her forums http://forum.mec4d.com/index.php

    Post edited by Heatherleea on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    The irony of these last few pages is not lost on us.

    Here are customers on the DAZ forums discussing how they can set up their own forums and take their discussions elsewhere.

    Wanting to do it in order to be free of any business restrictions whatsoever is one thing, using the DAZ forums to plan and gain support for it is another.

    Mr. Howell, the last thing I want to do is undermine DAZ. Far from it. In my mind I'm seeing such a forum as supportive. And the truth is, regardless of whether or not you guys put your collective feet down here and stop planning of a new forum, It will be very, very tough to get going.

    Suppose, however, that it does. Will it be a centralized location for DAZ Studio support? Not even close to the degree of support this forum gives. That's simply not going to happen. As a DAZ Studio user, and one who is more happy with DAZ Studio than not, I'm not going anywhere till you guys kick me out (there is always that possibility :P :))

    But there is the pipeline issue. For those people who want to take DAZ Studio to a new level and operate professionally, they have to think like professionals. Most professionals operate with a pipeline, that being software from various sources used in succession to produce a finished product. If I remember correctly I'm pretty sure I heard in the past that DAZ has used Lightwave and Maya to produce it's product, not sure what you guys are using now, or if you've simply added to your arsenal.

    Lots of people use Rhino, Silo. Zbrush, 3DSmacks... then there's the shiney new and exciting 3D-Coat, ZBrush, 2D aps like GIMP, PSP and Photopoop and of course 2D Animation software for putting movies together...

    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously. Anyone who understands DAZ Studio understands that it's a serious application with enourmous potential to do amazing things currently done in Maya, XSI and Max. For those of us using it, and those who want to use it professionally, a place which supports the pipeline approach is truly needed.

    That place, in my opinion, should not be a market place. Renderosity has pretty much proven that the two are incompatible in the long run.

    What you guys have done, and this is huge: you expanded the consumer 3D Market in ways that would otherwise have been impossible. Metacreations, CreativeLabs and SmithMicro did NOT do that. They may have provided the means innitially, but THEY did NOT do it! DAZ did! Perhaps it's still a very small market (relatively...) but it's far larger than it was ten years ago, and that's all on DAZ because you guys developed advanced figures anyone could use and made them available easily to the little guy, and now you've provided the single most advanced figure ever seen on the consumer 3D Market, so the only way to go from here is up. I'm still a little prideful of my small part in beta testing Victoria 1 back in the day... it was me and Traveller... of course he provided more value (he was morph king at the time) but I still very fondly remember that time and how much fun it was to work with you guys. Who knew what was starting with her! You guys should be very, very proud of what you have accomplished.

    So, my hope is this: that if a new forum successfully starts up that you folks come to think of it as supportive rather than a detriment and that it will, in fact, be supportive rather than a detriment. That it will fall in line with your goals the way ShareCG and DeviantArt currently do.

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously.

    Guys, let's... let's all just go there.

    I'm mostly kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if a number of DS users showed up and took themselves more seriously the people there would either realize there's more to 3D than sculpting your own base figures or at least make artistically significant suggestions rather than program-related ones.

  • DireBunnyDireBunny Posts: 556
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously.

    Guys, let's... let's all just go there.

    I'm mostly kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if a number of DS users showed up and took themselves more seriously the people there would either realize there's more to 3D than sculpting your own base figures or at least make artistically significant suggestions rather than program-related ones.


    Have fun storming the castle.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,200
    edited December 1969

    I like that idea!

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously.

    Guys, let's... let's all just go there.

    I'm mostly kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if a number of DS users showed up and took themselves more seriously the people there would either realize there's more to 3D than sculpting your own base figures or at least make artistically significant suggestions rather than program-related ones.

    You'd have to have something truly impressive to show them. You won't get their attention (other than the negative kind) any other way.

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously.

    Guys, let's... let's all just go there.

    I'm mostly kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if a number of DS users showed up and took themselves more seriously the people there would either realize there's more to 3D than sculpting your own base figures or at least make artistically significant suggestions rather than program-related ones.


    Have fun storming the castle.
    I genuinely think this has a shot now [well, at least for creating general amusement]. Now that DS4 Pro is free, the program comes with rigging tools, etcetera, which means that while it doesn't have all the capabilities of larger software packages, most things aside from modeling can actually be done [with the Garibaldi plugin demo or Look At My Hair you even get nice strand-based hair which is a huge step forward].

    They may be more open to making suggestions like "the joints look unrealistic, try altering the weight-mapping in such-and-such a way" or help with the arrangement of Shader nodes rather than simply bashing. Especially since they don't really look down on people such as animators/texturers collaborating with modelers. We've just hit roughly the same level of capability - curious to see whether that afffects anything.

    [Then again I saw someone run off of a [strike]more professional[/strike] snootier CG forum for developing models to be used in Poser, despite the fact he was doing his own work and using ZBrush, so perhaps my hopes are too high.]

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    wancow said:
    What we do NOT have, at our level, is a place like CGTalk which, unfortunately, refuses to take DS seriously.

    Guys, let's... let's all just go there.

    I'm mostly kidding, but I'm genuinely curious if a number of DS users showed up and took themselves more seriously the people there would either realize there's more to 3D than sculpting your own base figures or at least make artistically significant suggestions rather than program-related ones.

    You'd have to have something truly impressive to show them. You won't get their attention (other than the negative kind) any other way.
    Well, I'm not afraid of mockery, and have a soft spot for constructive criticism. I can hardly set myself up as 'truly impressive,' though. XD

    I'm going to start a project over the weekend and give it a shot even if no one else does, just for curiosity's sake.

    [strike]Wish me luck.[/strike]

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,200
    edited December 1969

    still awaiting the confirmation email %-P
    might be too scared to post though!
    quite happy at Daz but the troll in me loves the idea

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
    edited February 2013

    i'm trying to make logical sense of this thread.

    so, it sounds like, Daz doesn't want to be the central hub?

    They want another site to be the hub and Daz would then be a satellite on the ring, or a spoke on the new central hub of 3d information yet to be determined?

    Post edited by Mistara on
  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited December 1969

    i'm trying to make logical sense of this thread.

    so, it sounds like, Daz doesn't want to be the central hub?

    They want another site to be the hub and Daz would then be a satellite on the ring, or a spoke on the new central hub of 3d information yet to be determined?


    Looks to me like DAZ wants to get rid of much of what makes it the top site in this market, while remaining the top site in this market. Wishing 'em luck with that . . . 8-/
  • mrsparkymrsparky Posts: 248
    edited December 1969

    The irony of these last few pages is not lost on us....

    Not everyone is, many people want to stay and have repeated the commonsense reasons about the why fores. Theres also been many good suggestions posted about how that could be achieved. Yet, and offence here, you've not addressed those possible solutions once.

    Solutions that could avoid the acrimony in debates like this and help everyone get back to the important stuff. Making and enjoying the pleasures that 3d brings us all.

    So any chance you could put those suggestions to the top-bods here and give some us feedback? We'd all appreciate it. Thanks!

  • edited December 1969

    If we have store credit left, can we get that in a check? Because you here at daz have gone bat crazy and I don't want to spend any more money here.

This discussion has been closed.