Commerical Products forum gone?
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DAZ does not do that. They closed the old commercial board and all the posts went with it. DAZ Moderators do not close threads or delete posts without very good reason. They are some of the most reasonable moderators on any forum anywhere.
I do NOT doubt BHowell's figures for a New York Second!!!!!!
The policies of the largest competing site had the moderators deleting postings with just a spelled out URL!!! Not even a real link! I know because I experienced this first hand!
The reason there is no reciprocation is because reciprocation is PROHIBITED by the competition! DAZ has been MORE THAN TOLLERANT of people advertizing their stuff here while never receiving the slightest consideration from the competition.
So yes, BHowell's numbers are probably accurate as they can possibly be! I believe them.
OH, why don't you do this: render an image of Victoria 4, post the credits, and in those credits, post a LINK TO DAZ 3D's Victoria 4 page! See what happens!
Frankly, I personally would go one step further.
I would, in the End User Liscense Agreement for ALL DAZ PRODUCTS, specify that any supporting content for those products must CREDIT DAZ 3D directly with a full link to DAZ3D.COM in the product page regardless of where they are posted.
Actually, Renderosity requires its vendors to link to any product that is required by their product in the product's promotional information. So any v4 clothing, hairs, characters and any Genesis clothing, hairs, morphs, poses etc. are supposed to include links back to the original figures. The same goes for DAZ shaders (link back to DAZ site) and texture expansions for DAZ clothing (link back to the clothing item you are supporting.
This is for the convenience of customers; there's no point in buying a DAZ related product if you are not going to buy the product it relies on, so DAZ does benefit from those links and from those products, and they couldn't be sold at all if there were no DAZ products for them to be based on. In this way the entire DAZ community benefits because the whole market becomes healthier and more diverse, which attracts more customers for everyone.
So it isn't fair to say there's absolutely no reciprocation; I believe what BHowell is suggesting is that DAZ does not receive equal benefit from those links that the smaller sites receive from links posted at DAZ.
Wancow I'm not sure if you're joking or being sarcastic or what...
People came to Daz forums BECAUSE it was BETTER. WAS. WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was accepting, open, encouraging. I came to peek, paused to chat, stopped to shop, moved in to keep on buying!
And now this.
It's not better, anymore. It's the same as the other store and forums, you could say. Perhaps worse, now, because we can clearly remember the shining days when Daz was THE best place to be, the prime example of where to shop for the best welcome and treatment and value. And we see that it definitely is no longer that way anymore.
I can't understand ... Did Daz really think this was a good move when relations with customers are still reeling from one mess after another?
I'm just baffled at a few things: Creator X makes a product for Genesis. Regardless of where that product is hosted, it still promotes Genesis, a Daz product. Creator Y makes a plug in for LAMH as part of a chara pack. Regardless of where it's hosted, it promotes LAMH, a Daz Hosted product. Creator Z creates a texture package for MFD. Regardless, it promotes a Daz item.
Now, just because none of these are PA's, they can not promote what they made- even though it benefits Daz. I think that's where things stop making sense. Reality? I think it's one of the most talked about plug ins for DS, and many consider it a staple. When Daz went 4.5, I saw many times when people said they would upgrade after Reality was updated. It helps support Daz.
The difference between Daz and RDNA, Rendo, and other such sites is that Daz has a base product that relies on outside support- more like Poser then Rendo or RDNA, really. Daz provides Daz Studio, and the popular models many consider a staple in 3d art. Rendo, RDNA, and the such provide content for Poser and DS. They may not allow adverts for products sold at Daz or Poser, but they don't have too.. Just the fact that they exist and provide content for them is the biggest advertisement they could have. The content sites are a giant commercial for the products they provide content for- without the program, the content is useless. So if they don't want to advertise Daz PA's in their forums, ok. They lose enough by not being to provide the program, base models, and 'staple' content themselves.
If Daz wants to try and be like the content-only provider sites, it's going to have a hard time simply because that means alienating the vendors that support the base product. Any which way, it's all going to be about where they decide to focus their energies, and what they want to emerge as. Too early to predict right now.
I have my 3d sites bookmarked and check regularly, get some email alerts on sales etc. so that part doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the loss of great discussion threads and in particular one vendor who gave alot to their customers via Daz threads and was also a great citizen on the world and supported Japan Tsunami with her products. I think that is the main reason I am kinda upset with Daz today.
No problem. From Renderosity's Product Submission Guidelines:
complete contents of your package
product name and URL for any required products
the software and specific versions required to use your product
a full list of morphs included in your product, if applicable
(emphasis mine)
They may not allow links to outside products in the galleries or most of the forums, but if your product relies on another product it just makes sense to include a link to it. As a Renderosity vendor, I've actually had one or two products rejected from testing because I forgot to include this information; now I include it in every product.
Just my two cents worth - but I think was a very bad commerical decision.
Speaking strictly from my experience - I would check out the commercial thread regularly - and often follow links to other sites. However, over the past 18-months, I've spent the vast majority of my 3d purchases on the Daz site. It's only when Daz doesn't offer something I'm looking for do I purchase elsewhere.
I've valued the forums as a place to find content for Daz and Genesis - with the majority of that content sold via the Daz store - but some items not. At the end of the day, these items enhance my experience with DS - and keep me an active user - and actively purchasing content.
If I'm going to have to now start visiting other forums on a regular basis, I can see my purchasing habits changing. It's not an indictment of Daz's decision, it's just the reality of the situation.
Some part of me thing that there is going have to be a new community site/forum not related to DAZ, Renderosity, Runtime DNA or what have you, paid for by advertisements for any store, linking to all, with galleries and forums, but not selling ANYTHNG. All the sites above are great and have great products, but once they started becoming about selling first and community second (which I don't blame them for) they started fracturing the community instead of growing it.
"well, you have a new product out which is not completely compatible with my new product then you suck and we are going to encourage our vendors not to support your product"
This kind of attitude starts a viscious circle and starts locking everyone in their own walled gardens. Well, I enjoy a garden, but I want a nice path where I can get to every one and be encourage to enter any of them.
Even with all that's been going on, I should mention that I still love DAZ 4.5 and Genesis; I just wanted to make sure DAZ also knows when I as a customer and member of the larger DAZ community disagree with one of their decisions since I know that in the end all of their decisions are also aimed at keeping customers like me happy and coming back. :)
I have a question.... Would it be possible to offer these advertised products here at DAZ? I realize they won't sell all content submitted, but it seems a shame that daz users won't be able to buy them from this store here...
First let me say thank you BHowell, it's good to actually be able to hear from and respond to and official DAZ rep. - not a very common thing any more.
I understand fully why DAZ3D would not want threads with links to and supporting competing 3rd party products. I don't understand why you have issues will 3rd party products that require your products to use them - Reality for example. Now I do understand that DAZ and the creator of Reality have sort of .... lets say ... agreed to disagree, and Reality is no longer sold here, but it does require DS to run (for now). This seems to be very similar to an emerging issue with a Carrara plugin vendor. These plugins require your products to be able to use them, they enhance the usability of your products, this enhanced usability ensures people aren't moving to non DAZ products to get the desired functionality, and solidifies your position in the marketplace. I must be missing something here, because this just doesn't seem like good business. In fact, for many other 3D software vendors, it's not uncommon for them to have pages dedicated to 3rd party plugins with links to the external sites where they can be purchased.
With regard to your traffic statistics, I don't doubt your numbers, but I do challenge your interpretation of the numbers. As one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) sites in the "Poserverse", and certainly the company/site that owns the most popular human figures in this market, I would expect the traffic analysis to be like what you have shared with us. DAZ is the place everyone who has been using Poser (and of course DS or Carrara) for more than a month or two, knows about. I would expect that there would be much less traffic from other sites to DAZ than from DAZ to other sites (as your data confirms). I challenge your interpretation of the numbers because I would expect most of the traffic to DAZ3D to be either from a direct link (saved as a favorite in the browser), or from a search engine such as Google. I wouldn't expect much traffic from links on other sites, because people already know about DAZ3D, they don't need to come here from another location. Additionally, traffic from here to another location doesn't necessarily indicate lost revenue either. I have often visited other sites through links found here, but have seldom purchased from those sites. I feel more comfortable purchasing here than at other locations because of your good reputation (though you have lost a lot of that over the past year or so with your new web site "issues") and the consistent high quality of products found here. I would guess many of your customers feel the same (90% of my purchases are made here).
I also think you may be under valuing the open atmosphere (that was once here) compared to other sites. That does bring people to your site, and it brings return visits because people can find the information they need. Unfortunately, over the past one to two years, information exchange regarding Poser has dropped significantly, but this is the place to go to learn about DS or Carrara. Now that I can no longer keep apprised of all plugin developments or companion software for either one of these here (unless it is sold here), where will I go? Now I will be forced to visit other sites more often. I do have limited time to spend on line, so as a result I will spend less time here, which also means I may spend less money here as I get more comfortable with other sites. I really don't think this makes good business sense.
Just my 2 cents and some food for thought.
This has been R.com's policy forever... they don't allow any commercial linking, or freeware linking, for that matter, to other sites.
Nope, not forever but for some years now.
Ahh ok, thanks for the clarification Punto^
While there is inevitably a need to look at the policies of other sites in this matter we ask that members refrain from attacking those sites or their staff. Simple statements of facts are fine, but derogatory language and accusations are not.
Thank you.
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
It seemed time for the obligatory Monty Python & The Holy Grail quote. (I'll just go back to the mud now.)
Careful or the vorpal bunny will get you. ;)
I'm waiting for the Genesis Bunny. That'll give me the Vorpal, the Easter and the Playboy Bunny all in one.
Someone say bunny! :) ;) Darn Im not vorpal..just pink and fluffey!
I'm waiting for the Genesis Bunny. That'll give me the Vorpal, the Easter and the Playboy Bunny all in one.Okay, that was funny.
Run away! Run away!
What? Behind the rabbit?
No, it is the rabbit!
I was sincerely hoping to get some derogatory jabs in towards Renderosity too.
Thank you dustrider for this very well written post.
Since I could not have pu it better I allowed myself to quote it.
It is pretty exactly the way I feel about this situation.
I only want to add a thought I had when I was at maybe page 5 of this thread.
This is not about DAZ or any company selling 3D software or content in particular, but about us being a rather small community.
Until today I got most of my information and help here.
I use Studio and used Reality, now switched to another unbiased render engine running on GPU for wich someone is currently developing a plugin. I hope that with this decision this person finishes the plugin, if not I might have to change my posing / setup software...
So for me the DAz forums were a place where software, plugins and content could be discussed pretty much freely, which changed now.
As dustrider, I somewhat understand this decision.
But I think what we as a community really need is an independent space.
Space for us to discuss our art.
Space for content artists to show off their WIPs and product, no matter where they are sold in the end.
Space for programmers to present their plugins (or ideas), communicate with their beta testers and customers without the need to spend their precious coding time to set up an own forum.
Even space for commercial sites, software houses in particular like DAZ or SM, to present and promote their development FOR FREE.
For free emphasized, because this space should remain independent.
So no ads, nothing commercial.
I really think everyone would profit, us artists, content providers, plugin providers, and also software providers.
That being said, what do you think?
Please discuss!
Mods: Please feel free to delete this post (hopefully not!) or, if a discussion should arise, move to own topic. Thank you!
Sounds like Renderotica actually, since "Premier Artists" is what Renderotica uses.
I really don't mind, but I liked "Published" more too.
Sounds like Renderotica actually, since "Premier Artists" is what Renderotica uses.
I really don't mind, but I liked "Published" more too.
"Premier" was used as an adjective... it should have been "Premier Published Artists." Nobody is changing the name to "Premier Artists".
Good. That's better.
"Premier" was used as an adjective... it should have been "Premier Published Artists." Nobody is changing the name to "Premier Artists".
Well, the store right now is a bit confusing in the respect to names:
I just had a thread closed down on another site because they realized the product I was making was not for their store. So this happens all over. RuntimeDNA, Rotica, and at Renderosity. Daz has been the only one to let the freedom go on for so long. If the others can do it to protect their customer base, why can't Daz?
I'm not happy that this decision took place, as it made me a vendor in the first place, and will probably deny another future vendor the same privilege and exposure, but that is exactly what it was, a privilege, not a right. I understand from a business point of view where they are coming from. Times are tough, and everybody is trying to protect their investments. So lets all ease up a bit here guys. I hope there will be a space for 3rd party and offsite stuff, as they do generate a lot of talking points and adds to the value of interesting discussions here in the threads.
Zev0, just a reminder before a mod catches it, you have links in your signature :)