Daz Studio 4.9 Beta Now Available..

Havos

DAZ_Spooky said:

Syndaryl said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, as the files are encrypted and so I can't open them. I can export to OBJ and destroy the rigging and pray and hope that the transfer wizard puts it all back where it came from.

Content creators can work on our own content because we aren't using the DAZ Connect version of our products - we're using our locally created products - which haven't been encrypted yet. I presume if you lose your original files and have to make an update you can personally go ask DAZ to send you an unencrypted version, but you certainly won't be doing DUF edits on the version from the store.

Edits you can do directly in Studio with Studio tools, you certainly can do. While Studio has some really great tools, that's still painfully limiting for batch work. The horrible memory limitations and performance problems of the DAZ script environment if I want to make mass edits to multiple figures or presets make it a choice of last resort for me.

What specific, practical, use case do you believe encryption prevents you from doing? 

Certainly any batch processing by any application outside studio, that may, for example being using quite complex algorithms to accurately transfer a V4 pose to a G2F one, or a whole host of other conversion processes.

For example lets assume someone wrote a converter for G2F skins to G3F skins. This is likely to be too complex to run as a script, so would be best achieved in an external program. That program needs to read the material duf file in order to gather data about the image files being used, including bump/specular etc. How will this be achieved when the duf file is encrypted and so unreadable to the program?

DAZ_Spooky

Havos said:

DAZ_Spooky said:

Syndaryl said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, as the files are encrypted and so I can't open them. I can export to OBJ and destroy the rigging and pray and hope that the transfer wizard puts it all back where it came from.

Content creators can work on our own content because we aren't using the DAZ Connect version of our products - we're using our locally created products - which haven't been encrypted yet. I presume if you lose your original files and have to make an update you can personally go ask DAZ to send you an unencrypted version, but you certainly won't be doing DUF edits on the version from the store.

Edits you can do directly in Studio with Studio tools, you certainly can do. While Studio has some really great tools, that's still painfully limiting for batch work. The horrible memory limitations and performance problems of the DAZ script environment if I want to make mass edits to multiple figures or presets make it a choice of last resort for me.

What specific, practical, use case do you believe encryption prevents you from doing? 

Certainly any batch processing by any application outside studio, that may, for example being using quite complex algorithms to accurately transfer a V4 pose to a G2F one, or a whole host of other conversion processes.

Is this some hypothetical product? It isn't one I have seen. Specific practical use case. 

Zev0

Daikatana said:

Zev0 said:

Renpatsu said:

Zev0 said:

 

It's not being naive. People like getting things for free if they don't have to pay for it, even people with the highest moral ground. How often do you hear of users waiting for discounts and refuse to buy a product at full price? Now imagine if some can get it for free off illegal sites. Think they are going to say no? On my products alone, there are more warez and torrent Downloads than purchases. Naive? Sorry. If they aren't made available for free, more would buy. This whole saying "those who torrent or DL from warez won't buy anyways" is a load of rubbish.They would buy if the free temptation didn't exist.

Seriously?  You are equating waiting for discounts to piracy? Maybe you did not intend to but your statement can be construed as insulting to quite a few people.  Yes.  I do wait for sales on a lot of products.  So what?  I do have a job and bills to pay and a budget to try and stay within.  This is a NORMAL situation and nothing about it is disrespectful, dishonorable, or illegal.  So what if I dont buy your creations during the intro period every time you release something.  If they are something that I find useful I DO buy them and you still get a percentage of what I pay. 

I really hope you did not intend your post in the manner in which it is read.

 

You are misreading what I am saying. I am saying you get those who will wait for discounts rather than pay full price, then on the other end of the spectrum you get those who have no issues just obtaining the content at no cost off illegal sites. Two different groups of people, not the same. Why would I insult people who support us? The point I was trying to make is that you get people who do not see piracy as an issue, or don't really care about the effect it has on the industry or PA's. To them downloading our content is just like downloading a song off the internet where they feel there is nothing wrong with doing so. Same can be said about TV series. My friends copy the latest episodes off the net to watch, but don't really care that what they are doing is infact illegal or contributing to the damaging effects of the market. All they want to do is watch the latest episode. Hense my statement that some people just like to get things for free. Does it mean they are bad people? Depends on your definition of bad. The point is regarding our content, it is an issue for us financially for those who do so. Then at the abyss of the spectrum, you get those who know exactly what they are doing and charging a fee for stolen content sold here.

Havos

diogenese19348 said:

Daikatana said:

timmins.william said:

In the past I believe some companies with DRM have enacted special downloads when going out of business, so customers can continue to use their content for however long they maintain their backups.

It would be nice if Daz thought through a contingency plan along those lines.

 

If they have, or if they are, it would be wonderful if they would let us know this.  If there was a guarantee that people would not lose access to their investments should Daz3D fold up operations, it might go a bit towards easing some very valid concerns from people who have been burned in the past by cloud based services and DRM.

Hypotheticly if DAZ were to cease operations exactly what program where you planning to use all that DRM free content in?

Actually quite a lot of DSON files are not really that different from the files out there now to represent 3D data, like obj files and others. The dsf files are different from obj, but not that much, there is still the basic way of representing vertices, normals and polygons. It would not take that much effort to write a importer for a program like Blender. The shader stuff is pretty specific to DAZ Studio (though even some of that can be mapped to similar systems), but the raw geometry, links to image files etc, are not that different. With DAZ using industry standards for UV mapping and weightmapping for Genesis 3, the ability to use these assets in other programs has got even easier, unless of course the files are encrypted, when all that does out the window.

Havos

DAZ_Spooky said:

Havos said:

DAZ_Spooky said:

Syndaryl said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, as the files are encrypted and so I can't open them. I can export to OBJ and destroy the rigging and pray and hope that the transfer wizard puts it all back where it came from.

Content creators can work on our own content because we aren't using the DAZ Connect version of our products - we're using our locally created products - which haven't been encrypted yet. I presume if you lose your original files and have to make an update you can personally go ask DAZ to send you an unencrypted version, but you certainly won't be doing DUF edits on the version from the store.

Edits you can do directly in Studio with Studio tools, you certainly can do. While Studio has some really great tools, that's still painfully limiting for batch work. The horrible memory limitations and performance problems of the DAZ script environment if I want to make mass edits to multiple figures or presets make it a choice of last resort for me.

What specific, practical, use case do you believe encryption prevents you from doing? 

Certainly any batch processing by any application outside studio, that may, for example being using quite complex algorithms to accurately transfer a V4 pose to a G2F one, or a whole host of other conversion processes.

Is this some hypothetical product? It isn't one I have seen. Specific practical use case. 

You asked for a use case and I gave one, it does not have to exist as a product for it make it valid. Who knows what people have written for their own private purposes. On the skin conversion case I believe the old texture converter does read the files (though they may only read the poser specific ones, I am not sure), so it is not as if this is something that has never happened. I am not denying that for the majority of users this is a non-issue, but to say there are no cases at all where one would need to read these files is also incorrect.

mjc1016

Havos said:

Actually quite a lot of DSON files are not really that different from the files out there now to represent 3D data, like obj files and others. The dsf files are different from obj, but not that much, there is still the basic way of representing vertices, normals and polygons. It would not take that much effort to write a importer for a program like Blender. The shader stuff is pretty specific to DAZ Studio (though even some of that can be mapped to similar systems), but the raw geometry, links to image files etc, are not that different. With DAZ using industry standards for UV mapping and weightmapping for Genesis 3, the ability to use these assets in other programs has got even easier, unless of course the files are encrypted, when all that does out the window.

There are/were at least 2 dsf/dson importers for Blender...that worked well and one probably still works with the appropriate Blender version (or did the last time I checked...).

Richard Haseltine

Havos said:

DAZ_Spooky said:

Havos said:

DAZ_Spooky said:

Syndaryl said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, as the files are encrypted and so I can't open them. I can export to OBJ and destroy the rigging and pray and hope that the transfer wizard puts it all back where it came from.

Content creators can work on our own content because we aren't using the DAZ Connect version of our products - we're using our locally created products - which haven't been encrypted yet. I presume if you lose your original files and have to make an update you can personally go ask DAZ to send you an unencrypted version, but you certainly won't be doing DUF edits on the version from the store.

Edits you can do directly in Studio with Studio tools, you certainly can do. While Studio has some really great tools, that's still painfully limiting for batch work. The horrible memory limitations and performance problems of the DAZ script environment if I want to make mass edits to multiple figures or presets make it a choice of last resort for me.

What specific, practical, use case do you believe encryption prevents you from doing? 

Certainly any batch processing by any application outside studio, that may, for example being using quite complex algorithms to accurately transfer a V4 pose to a G2F one, or a whole host of other conversion processes.

Is this some hypothetical product? It isn't one I have seen. Specific practical use case. 

You asked for a use case and I gave one, it does not have to exist as a product for it make it valid. Who knows what people have written for their own private purposes. On the skin conversion case I believe the old texture converter does read the files (though they may only read the poser specific ones, I am not sure), so it is not as if this is something that has never happened. I am not denying that for the majority of users this is a non-issue, but to say there are no cases at all where one would need to read these files is also incorrect.

Texture Converter 2 read Poser mat poses - though only the diffuse colour maps, so for bumps or the like there was still some manual fiddling.

DAZ_Rawb

I need to get back to working on the offline encryption support, so I'm going to step away like The Usual Suspects. But before I head off I don't want to seem like I am Clueless about your concerns so I'll recap the top concerns with my responses below.

 

1. DRM won't prevent piracy.

We know that the encryption that is in Daz Connect won't stop piracy from happening. Our goal with it however is to increase the difficulty on piracy so that there has to be some effort involed in pirating the content. We are planning on this effort decreasing the quantity of pirated content available because Hackers would only have so much time in the day to jump through the content cracking and repackaging in order to get that content online. We purposefully have this bar set pretty low because in order to increase the level of difficulty we would have to remove and restrict our users further. I mean, what serious content protection system still allows for exporting, offline installation, disconnected operation, keys without renewal, and simple backups.

 

2. Daz Connect won't let me organize my files like I want

This is a change that we were aware would cause an Outbreak of discussions but we didn't expect the volume of response that we got. We had some discussions While You Were Sleeping and have come up with some potential solutions we will plan and implement. I expect that we will give you an update in the future because if you are willing to come along with us for A Walk in the Clouds with the new Daz Connect then we should put some additional effort in to making sure it will work well with your current workflows.

 

3. I don't want to always be online

The good news on this one is that working with Daz Connect is very easy to do without keeping a constant connection. For those of you that are temporarialy offline while you are at the park, on a plane, stuck on Waterworld, or just waiting for the cable company to show up to fix your internet you should be happy to know that your content won't stop working even if your internet drops regardless of how long you are waiting for the guy from the cable company. On the other side, those of you that can't or don't want to have your Daz Studio connected at all will have to connect once on that machine so it can use your machine specific code that combines with your user key to build your locally stored key, after that you will be able to stay disconnected forever. This will only be possible after I get back to work and finish the offline package support. 

 

4. Daz Connect isn't an optional feature

While there may be products in the future that are only installable through Daz Connect (possibly only for a limited time) all current products and many, many future products will be and remain available through unencrypted zips in DIM and the product library. It may limit some options on the future, but like Iray or Genesis 3, if you want to avoid products that are only compatible with them it will be an option. We have also made it very easy to tell Daz Connect to Die Hard: With a Vengeance by having a "Work Offline" option with a "Never ask me about this again" option on the first screen popup. There isn't any easy way to accidentally connect unless you happen to trip and type your username and password in while clicking login, we aren't even sharing any information from DIM to Daz Studio so even if you have your login and password saved over there we won't pull it over.

 

5. I'm never upgrading to 4.9

There are plenty of reasons to upgrade from 4.9 even if you are part of the Species that avoids Daz Connect entirely. The updated build of 3Delight includes some sizeable performance improvements along with fixing a number of bugs and improving portions of the renderer. Iray has also been updated with modest performance improvements and a lot of fixes for additional stability. While there are a multitude of small bugs fixed in addition there were also a lot of improvements made to smart content and the database portions of content library. Search and display times in smart content have been vastly improved as has the categorization workflow. 

 

6. Daz Connect won't let me use my existing content

Daz Connect works with any content that 4.8 works with. If you think of the Four Rooms that you could have your content stored as: Third-party content / content without any metadata is all still available in content library in the file view, just like before and can be added to the smart content panel easier than before. DIM installed content has the metadata migrated over to appear in smart content while still appearing in content library and you can use without any extra downloads or additional encryption. Daz Connect content will appear in smart content panel and will get incremental metadata and file changes on update. Content you create will be left unencrypted and can be categorized into smart content if you want.

 

7. Daz is spying on me

Extra effort has been put in to ensuring that Daz Connect doesn't collect any data. The store panel has gone through great effort to make sure that nothing is sent to the server (unless you search in the store pane) and can do all of the selection based filtering entirely on inside of that panel so no matter what you do with the Bad Boys in the scene it won't be sending that our way. The store pane doesn't have any ads, instead trying to blend in with the look at smart content and just give you more relevant product options to what you are actively working on. Fetching metadata in the online mode of Daz Connect only sends up three hashes so the server can tell if it's version of metadata is newer than what is in Daz Studio. Additionally, there isn't any scanning system in Daz Connect to see if there are any products installed on the system that Daz Connect doesn't know about, we only send information down about products you own and it doesn't care what else is on the drive. If you check out the amount of traffic that Daz Connect transfers in an online mode you should notice that there is a very tiny amount of data sent to the server (login, check hashes, identify to the push channel, requesting product information for downloads) so you don't even have to take my word for it.

 

So, hopefully the summary of these Se7en top issues helps. Next time I see you all I should be done with the offline package support.

Zev0

Thanks for the update Rawb. This thread has been pretty brutal and I am glad some of the concerns were acknowledged regarding this whole drm thing. I love the new Iray updates as it is way faster and stable for me compared to 4.8. Must still play with 3DLight.

Morpheon

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read. So how will this stop piracy? Well, the way I see it is if you get an illegal copy of a product where the encryption doesnt match your account, Daz can pick it up and block it, or trace the encryption from the person who distributed it. So in theory, it can work as an anti piracy measure. Unfortunately piracy is out of hand, and something needs to be done. It cannot continue the way it is. All product released this week are already on warez sites and sometimes it really makes you wonder why you bother at all if it's just stolen the next day

All the encryption will do will be to ensure that DAZ Studio sees a licensed key (or not) that authorizes the use of encrypted content within it. A lot of artists currently export models and scenes from DAZ into other applications -- ZBrush, Max, Modo, C4D, etc. -- which, unless DAZ can convince the makers of these other apps to support their encryption scheme (which I greatly doubt), means that DAZ content will be in those apps DRM-free. OF COURSE distributing that content at that point is piracy -- no one said it wasn't. What I said was that it effectively nullifies DAZ's reasoning for imposing this system on us: the 'Net will be flooded with hacked versions of previously DRM'd DAZ content -- content that can presumably be altered so that DAZ Studio does not recognize it as content that ought to be encrypted, should someone choose to reimport that content back into DS.

However, after giving it some thought, I don't even think THAT will be necessary. What will most likely happen is that someone will simply hack DAZ Studio itself, in a manner so that it simply doesn't check for an encryption key or just doesn't care if one is there or not. Someone will figure out a way to copy and distribute the encrypted files of whatever content may be desired, which will be used with a neutered version of DS instead of the official release from DAZ. After all, every single 3D application you care to name has been hacked and pirated, and DAZ Studio will be no different. The only reason it isn't now is because it wasn't necessary, but DAZ has given the pirates a challenge someone will take them up on. I give it a week after it all goes live -- a month at most. 

mjc1016

Morpheon said:

After all, every single 3D application you care to name has been hacked and pirated

Not Blender (it's a bit hard to pirate an OpenSource application...and as for hacking, well that's what having free access to the source code is for).

Richard Haseltine

Morpheon said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read. So how will this stop piracy? Well, the way I see it is if you get an illegal copy of a product where the encryption doesnt match your account, Daz can pick it up and block it, or trace the encryption from the person who distributed it. So in theory, it can work as an anti piracy measure. Unfortunately piracy is out of hand, and something needs to be done. It cannot continue the way it is. All product released this week are already on warez sites and sometimes it really makes you wonder why you bother at all if it's just stolen the next day

All the encryption will do will be to ensure that DAZ Studio sees a licensed key (or not) that authorizes the use of encrypted content within it. A lot of artists currently export models and scenes from DAZ into other applications -- ZBrush, Max, Modo, C4D, etc. -- which, unless DAZ can convince the makers of these other apps to support their encryption scheme (which I greatly doubt), means that DAZ content will be in those apps DRM-free. OF COURSE distributing that content at that point is piracy -- no one said it wasn't. What I said was that it effectively nullifies DAZ's reasoning for imposing this system on us: the 'Net will be flooded with hacked versions of previously DRM'd DAZ content -- content that can presumably be altered so that DAZ Studio does not recognize it as content that ought to be encrypted, should someone choose to reimport that content back into DS.

But that content won't be rigged, won't have morphs, won't geograft, won't have materials etc. - unless the pirate puts a lot of effort into making it do so (in which case they will be well on the way to being a content creator and may well stop pirating).

Leana

mjc1016 said:

Morpheon said:

After all, every single 3D application you care to name has been hacked and pirated

Not Blender (it's a bit hard to pirate an OpenSource application...and as for hacking, well that's what having free access to the source code is for).

Oh yes, it has. There are people who will pirate even free software...

SassyWench

Rawb, thank you for #2! And for #4 I'm clumsy enough that I can't type and chew gum let alone type :)

You and you team turned a brutal DazDay into a positive so thanks again!

 

Leana

DAZ_Rawb said:

On the other side, those of you that can't or don't want to have your Daz Studio connected at all will have to connect once on that machine so it can use your machine specific code that combines with your user key to build your locally stored key, after that you will be able to stay disconnected forever. This will only be possible after I get back to work and finish the offline package support. 

Does the "machine-specific code" part mean that when your content is installed on 2 computers the files are not the same on both? Or simply that you would have 2 keys which would be accepted to decode the same files?

Morpheon

mjc1016 said:

Morpheon said:

After all, every single 3D application you care to name has been hacked and pirated

Not Blender (it's a bit hard to pirate an OpenSource application...and as for hacking, well that's what having free access to the source code is for).

And I addressed that point: because at the moment it's unnecessary, for both DS and Blender. DAZ has just given the pirates a reason to turn their attention to it -- Blender has not. I stopped seeing pirated versions of DS floating around after DAZ abandoned DS3, but I think that's about to change. 

 

mjc1016

Leana said:

mjc1016 said:

Morpheon said:

After all, every single 3D application you care to name has been hacked and pirated

Not Blender (it's a bit hard to pirate an OpenSource application...and as for hacking, well that's what having free access to the source code is for).

Oh yes, it has. There are people who will pirate even free software...

Technically, with its license it can't be pirated.  Yes, there are some scumbags that have done shady things with it, but pirating it isn't one of them.  It's just an unofficial fork...

glaseye

Ok, a few practical questions, probably/maybe already asked before somewhere in this thread.  1st some info, my main render system (win7/PC) is an offline system, no internet connection to it. I dl items via an other system. In general NOT using dim, I do my own manual install according to my setup which serves my needs.

Previous beta needed to be dl through DIM, so that is one of the very few exceptions I did use that (not on my render system obviosuly) to dl the 4.8beta .Manually installed that on my render system. Can the same be done with te 4.9beta?

Once 4.9 is out of  beta, and released to the public, will there be an executable installer as before?

Is DS 4.9 itself going to need an internet connection (once) to be validated?

Connect is optional, I understand, but mandatory for encrypted items, Those need to be validated. Is the validation key based, AO, on hardware (and account info), If so, what if I change my hardware and, for whatever reason - DAZ3D is no longer there (hey, bankrupcy is always a possibility) to revalidate... or is the key not 'bound to a system'?

Let's say in the future an item for genesis 2 male is released encrypted. Is it still possible to load that item in poser through DSON? After all DSON is a poser plugin, works outside DS (and I use poser as much as I use DS)

 

 

 

 

mjc1016

glaseye said:

Ok, a few practical questions, probably/maybe already asked before somewhere in this thread.  1st some info, my main render system (win7/PC) is an offline system, no internet connection to it. I dl items via an other system. In general NOT using dim, I do my own manual install according to my setup which serves my needs.

Previous beta needed to be dl through DIM, so that is one of the very few exceptions I did use that (not on my render system obviosuly) to dl the 4.8beta .Manually installed that on my render system. Can the same be done with te 4.9beta?

Once 4.9 is out of  beta, and released to the public, will there be an executable installer as before?

Is DS 4.9 itself going to need an internet connection (once) to be validated?

Connect is optional, I understand, but mandatory for encrypted items, Those need to be validated. Is the validation key based, AO, on hardware (and account info), If so, what if I change my hardware and, for whatever reason - DAZ3D is no longer there (hey, bankrupcy is always a possibility) to revalidate... or is the key not 'bound to a system'?

Let's say in the future an item for genesis 2 male is released encrypted. Is it still possible to load that item in poser through DSON? After all DSON is a poser plugin, works outside DS (and I use poser as much as I use DS)

 

 

 

 

Most of those encryption related questions should be answered in this post by Daz_Rawb...

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/935783/#Comment_935783

Morpheon

Richard Haseltine said:

Morpheon said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read. So how will this stop piracy? Well, the way I see it is if you get an illegal copy of a product where the encryption doesnt match your account, Daz can pick it up and block it, or trace the encryption from the person who distributed it. So in theory, it can work as an anti piracy measure. Unfortunately piracy is out of hand, and something needs to be done. It cannot continue the way it is. All product released this week are already on warez sites and sometimes it really makes you wonder why you bother at all if it's just stolen the next day

All the encryption will do will be to ensure that DAZ Studio sees a licensed key (or not) that authorizes the use of encrypted content within it. A lot of artists currently export models and scenes from DAZ into other applications -- ZBrush, Max, Modo, C4D, etc. -- which, unless DAZ can convince the makers of these other apps to support their encryption scheme (which I greatly doubt), means that DAZ content will be in those apps DRM-free. OF COURSE distributing that content at that point is piracy -- no one said it wasn't. What I said was that it effectively nullifies DAZ's reasoning for imposing this system on us: the 'Net will be flooded with hacked versions of previously DRM'd DAZ content -- content that can presumably be altered so that DAZ Studio does not recognize it as content that ought to be encrypted, should someone choose to reimport that content back into DS.

But that content won't be rigged, won't have morphs, won't geograft, won't have materials etc. - unless the pirate puts a lot of effort into making it do so (in which case they will be well on the way to being a content creator and may well stop pirating).

And in the second half of my comment, I explained why that probably isn't what will happen, because it won't be necessary. It'll simply be so much easier to just hack DS into not caring whether a valid encryption key is on hand or not than it would be to custom-hack every piece of DRM content. Pirates hack APPLICATIONS because THAT'S where the bottleneck is, and DS will be no different.

So, you find yourself a neutered version of DS, and a copy of -- say, Michael 7, with DRM intact -- and ta da! You're up and running, 'cause the hacked version of DS you're using just doesn't give a darn. Run it all on an isolated system with no outside connection, and you never need to worry about an exploit dialing home with your bank account and credit card numbers.

And all of this is being sold to us as "improving the user experience". Please...

glaseye

mjc1016 said:

glaseye said:

 

Most of those encryption related questions should be answered in this post by Daz_Rawb...

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/935783/#Comment_935783

Well, maybe they are, but not in a way that I do understand apparently (even though I do understsand English quite well, it is not my native lanquage, so I may miss something....)

So for now, my questions still stands.... but thank you for your response....

Zev0

And if there is an update you have to wait on that hacker to send an updated version of that hacked product. Most pirated content never get updated once uploaded. That to me sounds like a worse user experience. This is assuming there will be hacked versions of these content or Studio in that regard. We will get to that bridge once we get there I suppose.

Leana

glaseye said:

Ok, a few practical questions, probably/maybe already asked before somewhere in this thread.  1st some info, my main render system (win7/PC) is an offline system, no internet connection to it. I dl items via an other system. In general NOT using dim, I do my own manual install according to my setup which serves my needs.

Previous beta needed to be dl through DIM, so that is one of the very few exceptions I did use that (not on my render system obviosuly) to dl the 4.8beta .Manually installed that on my render system. Can the same be done with te 4.9beta?

That should work the same as for previous betas, yes.

glaseye said:

Once 4.9 is out of  beta, and released to the public, will there be an executable installer as before?

I don't see why not.

glaseye said:

Is DS 4.9 itself going to need an internet connection (once) to be validated?

No, if you never ever connect DS4.9 to internet it will work, no validation required. The one-time connection is needed to generate the key used by Daz Connect, if you don't use that you don't ever need the connection.

glaseye said:

Connect is optional, I understand, but mandatory for encrypted items, Those need to be validated. Is the validation key based, AO, on hardware (and account info), If so, what if I change my hardware and, for whatever reason - DAZ3D is no longer there (hey, bankrupcy is always a possibility) to revalidate... or is the key not 'bound to a system'?

The local key apparently is generated using a "machine specific code", but I have no idea if it's actually tied to that machine or if copying the local key file to another computer would work to decode the content.

glaseye said:

Let's say in the future an item for genesis 2 male is released encrypted. Is it still possible to load that item in poser through DSON? After all DSON is a poser plugin, works outside DS (and I use poser as much as I use DS)

No, DSON importer can't use encrypted items (well at least for now, no idea if anything is planned about it), you need to stick to content available via DIM or zip for Poser

 

mjc1016 said:

Technically, with its license it can't be pirated.  Yes, there are some scumbags that have done shady things with it, but pirating it isn't one of them.  It's just an unofficial fork...

I meant it as "made available on a pirate site", but yeah, I suppose that in Blender's case it's not technically pirating ;)

glaseye

Thank you for your answers, Leana, a bit what I expected, or feared.

mjc1016

Leana said:

 

mjc1016 said:

Technically, with its license it can't be pirated.  Yes, there are some scumbags that have done shady things with it, but pirating it isn't one of them.  It's just an unofficial fork...

I meant it as "made available on a pirate site", but yeah, I suppose that in Blender's case it's not technically pirating ;)

Funny thing is, some of the so-called 'pirate sites' are considered legit in their home countries...but that's an entirely different matter. 

Morpheon

Zev0 said:

And if there is an update you have to wait on that hacker to send an updated version of that hacked product. Most pirated content never get updated once uploaded. That to me sounds like a worse user experience. This is assuming there will be hacked versions of these content or Studio in that regard. We will get to that bridge once we get there.

Have you spent any time on a warez site? There are ALWAYS multiple versions of any given software available at any time, updated as the software maker updates it -- it's always a moving target. Yes, you can instantly buy the latest version of any software if you can pay for it, but you can also wait a week or two and it'll be available for free somewhere -- DAZ Studio 4.9+ will be no different. DAZ is only fooling itself if it thinks its encryption scheme won't be spoofed or bypassed. Ask Pixologic how much luck they've had stopping ZBrush from being distributed and used by pirates, or Autodesk with Max, or Adobe with Photoshop. Does even a full day go by before the pirated copies of their latest releases (and each update that follows) go up on the warez sites? And yet that doesn't stop them from creating and innovating, and without building some nanny-bot spyware BS into their software. Even Photoshop CC is being pirated in step with each update Adobe makes. If you're a pirate (or maybe just leaning that way), that might sound like a GREAT user experience.

Keep in mind that I am NOT advocating piracy, but I am also NOT convinced that the scheme currently being proposed is the solution, or even a reasonable interim solution. This seems like DAZ is laying the groundwork for some really bad stuff down the line (subscriptions, access and maintenance fees, etc.), especially since Autodesk is about to adopt the Adobe subsciption system in favor of its previous "forever" licenses.

nicstt

Leana said:

 

mjc1016 said:

Technically, with its license it can't be pirated.  Yes, there are some scumbags that have done shady things with it, but pirating it isn't one of them.  It's just an unofficial fork...

I meant it as "made available on a pirate site", but yeah, I suppose that in Blender's case it's not technically pirating ;)

There's no technically about it; open source, and part of the terms, states open source should be released back to the community. I suppose pirates - to be pirateish - would have to not release it back to the community, which pirates obviously do. :) So they aren't pirateing it.

I hope all this really does help PAs, I doubt it though; I also see it raising a red flag to some - they've made it a challenge.

DarkSpartan

DAZ_Rawb said:

I need to get back to working on the offline encryption support, so I'm going to step away like The Usual Suspects. But before I head off I don't want to seem like I am Clueless about your concerns so I'll recap the top concerns with my responses below.

 

1. DRM won't prevent piracy.

We know that the encryption that is in Daz Connect won't stop piracy from happening. Our goal with it however is to increase the difficulty on piracy so that there has to be some effort involed in pirating the content. We are planning on this effort decreasing the quantity of pirated content available because Hackers would only have so much time in the day to jump through the content cracking and repackaging in order to get that content online. We purposefully have this bar set pretty low because in order to increase the level of difficulty we would have to remove and restrict our users further. I mean, what serious content protection system still allows for exporting, offline installation, disconnected operation, keys without renewal, and simple backups.

 

2. Daz Connect won't let me organize my files like I want

This is a change that we were aware would cause an Outbreak of discussions but we didn't expect the volume of response that we got. We had some discussions While You Were Sleeping and have come up with some potential solutions we will plan and implement. I expect that we will give you an update in the future because if you are willing to come along with us for A Walk in the Clouds with the new Daz Connect then we should put some additional effort in to making sure it will work well with your current workflows.

 

3. I don't want to always be online

The good news on this one is that working with Daz Connect is very easy to do without keeping a constant connection. For those of you that are temporarialy offline while you are at the park, on a plane, stuck on Waterworld, or just waiting for the cable company to show up to fix your internet you should be happy to know that your content won't stop working even if your internet drops regardless of how long you are waiting for the guy from the cable company. On the other side, those of you that can't or don't want to have your Daz Studio connected at all will have to connect once on that machine so it can use your machine specific code that combines with your user key to build your locally stored key, after that you will be able to stay disconnected forever. This will only be possible after I get back to work and finish the offline package support. 

 

4. Daz Connect isn't an optional feature

While there may be products in the future that are only installable through Daz Connect (possibly only for a limited time) all current products and many, many future products will be and remain available through unencrypted zips in DIM and the product library. It may limit some options on the future, but like Iray or Genesis 3, if you want to avoid products that are only compatible with them it will be an option. We have also made it very easy to tell Daz Connect to Die Hard: With a Vengeance by having a "Work Offline" option with a "Never ask me about this again" option on the first screen popup. There isn't any easy way to accidentally connect unless you happen to trip and type your username and password in while clicking login, we aren't even sharing any information from DIM to Daz Studio so even if you have your login and password saved over there we won't pull it over.

 

5. I'm never upgrading to 4.9

There are plenty of reasons to upgrade from 4.9 even if you are part of the Species that avoids Daz Connect entirely. The updated build of 3Delight includes some sizeable performance improvements along with fixing a number of bugs and improving portions of the renderer. Iray has also been updated with modest performance improvements and a lot of fixes for additional stability. While there are a multitude of small bugs fixed in addition there were also a lot of improvements made to smart content and the database portions of content library. Search and display times in smart content have been vastly improved as has the categorization workflow. 

 

6. Daz Connect won't let me use my existing content

Daz Connect works with any content that 4.8 works with. If you think of the Four Rooms that you could have your content stored as: Third-party content / content without any metadata is all still available in content library in the file view, just like before and can be added to the smart content panel easier than before. DIM installed content has the metadata migrated over to appear in smart content while still appearing in content library and you can use without any extra downloads or additional encryption. Daz Connect content will appear in smart content panel and will get incremental metadata and file changes on update. Content you create will be left unencrypted and can be categorized into smart content if you want.

 

7. Daz is spying on me

Extra effort has been put in to ensuring that Daz Connect doesn't collect any data. The store panel has gone through great effort to make sure that nothing is sent to the server (unless you search in the store pane) and can do all of the selection based filtering entirely on inside of that panel so no matter what you do with the Bad Boys in the scene it won't be sending that our way. The store pane doesn't have any ads, instead trying to blend in with the look at smart content and just give you more relevant product options to what you are actively working on. Fetching metadata in the online mode of Daz Connect only sends up three hashes so the server can tell if it's version of metadata is newer than what is in Daz Studio. Additionally, there isn't any scanning system in Daz Connect to see if there are any products installed on the system that Daz Connect doesn't know about, we only send information down about products you own and it doesn't care what else is on the drive. If you check out the amount of traffic that Daz Connect transfers in an online mode you should notice that there is a very tiny amount of data sent to the server (login, check hashes, identify to the push channel, requesting product information for downloads) so you don't even have to take my word for it.

 

So, hopefully the summary of these Se7en top issues helps. Next time I see you all I should be done with the offline package support.

I see what you did there. Talk about a walk down Memory Lane...

Velvet Goblin

Zev0 said:

Renpatsu said:

Zev0 said:

The encryption is tied to your account. That means you cannot distribute the product. Eg like giving somebody else a copy of your game that requires a serial number that you own. This does not mean you cannot send to other apps to modify. If that was the case us content creators would not be able to make content or update a product if it was encrypted in that manner. If it is in your account and you own it, and you want to edit and modify, I see no reason why you cannot. But it won't work if distributed. That is what I understand from what I have read. So how will this stop piracy? Well, the way I see it is if you get an illegal copy of a product where the encryption doesnt match your account, Daz can pick it up and block it, or trace the encryption from the person who distributed it. So in theory, it can work as an anti piracy measure. Unfortunately piracy is out of hand, and something needs to be done. It cannot continue the way it is. All product released this week are already on warez sites and sometimes it really makes you wonder why you bother at all if it's just stolen the next day.

Zev, I love your products, but believing that all this crap will actually prevent piracy and bring in customers that were previously lost is IMHO rather naive.

It's not being naive. People like getting things for free if they don't have to pay for it, even people with the highest moral ground. How often do you hear of users waiting for discounts and refuse to buy a product at full price? Now imagine if some can get it for free off illegal sites. Think they are going to say no? On my products alone, there are more warez and torrent Downloads than purchases. Naive? Sorry. If they aren't made available for free, more would buy. This whole saying "those who torrent or DL from warez won't buy anyways" is a load of rubbish.They would buy if the free temptation didn't exist.

Zev0 -- if that were true, then these forums would be empty because we would ALL be downloading the free stuff, and NONE of us would be buying it. It's not as though it's difficult to find. Whatever it is -- morals, compassion, honesty -- that we have -- inside our brains or souls or whatever -- that makes us pay willingly for our content is the only DRM that actually works. Those that lack those qualities won't pay.

Instead, the greatest effect that DRM has on the *honest* customer is to restrict access to content. And then the *honest* customer ends up downloading cracked content, that they paid for, in order to use it the way they see fit. In other words, DRM encourages piracy among otherwise honest customers.

But it's just like politics. Business sees piracy as lost sales (which it isn't, just as shoplifting isn't lost sales) and executives say, "We must do SOMETHING. DRM is something. Therefore we must do it." And it doesn't matter whether it works or not, just as long as they can say "We did SOMETHING."

CypherFOX

Greetings,

It's amazing to me that this thread has devolved to a state where people are lauding the technical abilities of pirates, and vitriolically demonizing the intentions of the developers and backing company of a powerful free product.

smh.

I think it's about time mods started nuking posts where people enthusiastically speculate about how DAZ's not-even-shipped-yet content protection system could be bypassed, even when they're laughably technically irrelevant, just on general principle.

If you disagree with DAZ providing encryption at rest to their content, say so.  But don't sit there and post with drooling glee about how quickly it'll be broken.  They've got the right, and the responsibility, to at least try.  You don't have to use it (vote with your dollars if it even ever becomes an issue), but arguing that because you don't like it, everybody should just GET USED to having more people steal their work than buy it...that's obscene.

--  Morgan