Daz Studio 4.9 Beta Now Available..
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Arrrhhh....bury it over there, matey!
So I love Daz and all but I'm not sure I love them enough to hull my massive full tower case with me all over to connect to the Internet :( maybe I should ask for a prepaid Internet service flash drive device for xmas
I applaud DAZ and PAs in trying to logically explain their case for DRM but it is unlikely to change the minds of all the customers. You can thank other companies for poisoning the DRM well and erroding consumer confidence in any DRM scheme https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0004132388.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150925/22220132370/drm-still-breaking-games-nearly-decade-after-purchase.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150123/13364529795/drm-devalues-products-jailbroken-apple-tvs-selling-twice-price-latest-model.shtml etc.
Nobody can say how many sales will be lost if there were to be DAZ Connect only contnet vs the traditional DIM/zip sold. If people find that it is not a huge inconvience and doesn't impact their workflows this all might be overblown, but if consumers percieve it as a negative, their market pressure would lead to DAZ having to reevalute.
Every customer on this site did. Every last one of us could get all those products for free off illegal sites, and yet we don't.
However, if the pirates start offering a superior product which is more versatile than the officially sanctioned one, some current paying customers may find themselves sorely tempted to turn to piracy.
And who's doing that? Certainly not me. However, I'm not buying DAZ's song-and-dance about how this is being done "to improve the user experience" when it's blatantly an anti-piracy measure, and a badly thought-out one that is alienating to a large number of DAZ customers. You're confusing an honest assessment of the situation with cheerleading for pirates. If you're going to adopt a policy to address an issue, then you have to consider not only the negative consequences of NOT implementing it, but also the negative consequences that arise FROM that implementation, and right now, I see more people saying "screw this" than I do see saying "right on".
Wait 'til the encryption goes live. It won't matter if the software is still free at that point, what will matter is that it has been limited in some capacity, which the pirate community will see as a challenge, with the reward being financial gain, or bragging rights, or simply the joy of rubbing DAZ's nose in it. And it's part of the pirate scene to see who can be first to supply the latest version of any given piece of software or content. I'll bet if you download a dozen copies of one of your products from any of the warez sites, you'll be able to see a progression of updates amongst them. The DRM content from DAZ will be no different: as it gets updated, the updates will find their way onto the warez sites.
Almost brilliant... he should change "or just waiting for the cable company to show up to fix your internet" to "or just waiting for The Cable Guy to show up to fix your internet"
-- Walt Sterdan
Greetings,
Why does it have to be one or the other? I find this idea so odd...
They implemented a content download and management system that would resolve the large majority of issues that users have with the system, based on their data from a lot of sources. They realized that as part of that system, they could encrypt the data, and make it harder for pirates to be assholes. Nobody thinks it's going to be perfect (except those erecting straw men), but 'the perfect is the enemy of the good'. In strong opposition to your 'badly thought out' comment, they've thought deeply about how to make it usable for people, minimizing the encrypted parts to the parts that are DAZ specific, to the acknowledged detriment of the level of security. That's a choice to make things easier for users, at the expense of anti-piracy measures, which says clearly where their priorities are.
They're continuing to work on improving it. There are also multiple issues being conflated, and at different levels of being resolved.
But the idea that they shouldn't be allowed to do anything, and everyone should just suck it up and let the pirates do whatever they want without any barriers, is toxic and nauseating. If it doesn't work for you, when and if they do it, then don't buy it.
-- Morgan
So great that DAZ staff are scrambling around for a work-around for those users who like to custom organize their content rather than relying on the DS default organization. That doesn't sound like a "better user experience" to me -- it sounds more like CYA for an unanticipated negative consequence.
"DRM is a side benefit" -- And you actually believe that? This has been in the works for awhile even if DAZ hasn't said anything publicly about it, not something that just incidentally came about.
"the anti-piracy aspect was last to be mentioned" -- The fact that it was last means that it was more than likely CALCULATED, not that it was that UNIMPORTANT. That's an old presentation trick: keep building up your audience with goodie after goodie, then quickly slip in something with some teeth in it at the very end.
misplaced thought
Oh, I have a headache.
First:
"While there may be products in the future that are only installable through Daz Connect (possibly only for a limited time) all current products and many, many future products will be and remain available through unencrypted zips in DIM and the product library. "
ISN'T THAT A TOTAL CHANGE IN WHAT WAS SAID- one of you guys said DIM would be phased out or gradually replaced? So now you're saying DIM is not going to go away, that we can use it for all the products we currently have, to download those?
Here's why that is important- I read that the new encrypted products are by product number. HELL NO!!!! TELL ME AINT SO!!!! When I download files as a backup, I put them on an external harddrive, and I make folders for every single one BY PRODUCT TITLE. I can't be bothered to track down the product number to find a file. Has to be alphabetical! The files right now might not have the exact title, but near perfect, so I can look at the file and type a folder up, like presto! All my files are in alphabetical order .If I ever had to manually install a product, I can go to "Awesome Dress" in the "A's" and find it immediately. I absolutely shudder at thinking these future products are by product number only. No one else has even commented on that!
So tell me how this would work- in DIM, I download the products and do NOT check the install after download. I move them to a different folder so when I refresh DIM, they are all back in que to be installed, it doesn't recognize they've been downloaded as they're gone from that folder. I can then download again and this time, click install after download and they are in my studio. (I know I can also make a new folder in DIM for that, then switch it back to the folder that goes to the studio.)
With using the studio to install things, am I able to setup a different folder to send my backups to, then if I refresh the studio and change that folder, install them again? I'm SO not techical, but that's how I figure it would have to work. Regardless, it appears I will have to look up every blasted SKU to see what file is what product? YUCK.
So, is DIM sticking around now forever? Cause that's a change from what was first posted. (And helps a LOT)
SECOND:
I've seen this asked a few times- it's my understanding from the first 10 pages of the thread (somewhere in there) that whatever we have installed with DIM is going to a different location that what the new Studio installs to, so I am lost on a few things. (which didn't get answered in part)
1. If Dim installed content is stored separately from Connect content that is downloaded- is the studio using both? Or will DIM stuff have to be downloaded again?
2. Why, when first connecting, does the studio have to download ALL PRODUCTS metadata? Many people have over 10,000 products. What are you talking about for people with 6,000 products or more so far as time and storage on their computer? And I'm confused about metadata- sorry about this- but downloading the metadata, that isn't the same as downloading the files, right? Why would I need the metadata to all my products, if I'm not installing them right away? I have 3,000 installed in my studio, but that's only part of them. Why do I need the metadata put on my computer? I can't possibly download the metadata for all my products. Can't there be an option / fix for people who have more than average amount of products?
Lastly, from what I understand, the encryption key is per account, not machine. One comment mentioned having different ones for different machines, and I dont think that's right. You can only be online using one machine at a time, but can have the same studio setup on different machines. As said, you connect once to download/sync, then can stay offline if you want to, therefore using different machines with the one key. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Happy to see that a few bugs are excised with new version.
For example, in 4.8, if you take a Dystopian worker drone and give it Iray skin and set Metallicity above 0... crasharoonie. Now, it works.
(Although there's still something very odd about some of the head mat zones where you have to do weird stuff with shader builder to actually change them)
Greetings,
One post up from you.
And many more similar in this thread. Seriously, just...stop and think for a bit. DAZ isn't some smoke monster conjured to haunt your dreams. They're not an evil multi-billion dollar corporation. (Really, folks? NTT? They've taken investment from an investment company, not been bought out as a subsidiary.) They're people, just humans trying to balance some really damn hard problems, and make it all work.
If you're opposed to encryption because it messes with your specific workflow (note: encryption is not the same as the relocation of content) then lay out what your workflow is, without the drama, and maybe there'll be something that you can learn about how to do it better, in a way that works with the new system if/when it goes live. Maybe it'll help the DAZ developers know what features they need to expose, so you CAN do that in the future. If you're going to freak out because there's something encrypted on your system...take a step back, and breathe. Encryption isn't evil, DAZ isn't evil, DRM isn't evil. Just...breathe.
-- Morgan
Very few people said to do nothing. Most people are bringing their concerns up, be they unfounded or not. I know that I, for one, have mentioned other possible avenues to try.
I, like a lot of others, are alarmed at the slippery slope this might be. Where it is leading to. What happens if these measures fail. What are the other measures that will be tried? And a lot of us have been burned by other companies embracing of DRM.
For three weeks I had to suffer what happens when these measures break otherwise functional software. And usually it breaks at the most unexpected and painful times. For me it was the minute the satellite connection was no longer available.
There are a lot of unanswered questions. Do I expect an answer to all of them? No. Would I like someone at DAZ to hear them? Yes, because they might not have considered it yet. Like...
What happens if my decryption key breaks? What happens if the license server is down? What happens if I don't have an internet connection for an extended period of time? How much data will really be transferred back and forth? Will it slow down my operation of the software? Will the number of installed items have an impact on start up speed or adding content to a scene? How will third party plug ins that involve exporting, like Reality, behave? etc. etc.
I know I can answer some of these questions myself if I install the beta, but I am not going to do that for fear of impact on my stable installations. Some of the questions have been answered as well, but I am hesitant to believe until I see.
An improved user experience is a cleaner interface, a more logical workflow, or a faster more reliable way of finding something within 100 GB+ library -- something like that: an ACTUAL user experience.
I'm NOT saying the pirates are right in what they do -- they aren't. I'm not saying DAZ DOESN'T have the right to do this -- they do. I'm not saying I DON'T have the right to to tuck my wallet away and turn my back on them -- I do. Nobody is erecting strawmen, least of all me. I'd just prefer some honesty in my dealings with DAZ, not be fed a line from the start when the truth is something completely different.
I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself. I don't modify the .DUF/.DSF files, so that's not an issue to me, but I sympathize with those who do. However, I do some exporting of DAZ content to other apps, and I expect to do more as I gain in experience and knowledge, 'cause I like being able to work with content there -- DAZ's encryption scheme has the potential to cost me that ability. (A big selling point of DAZ content is that, historically, it CAN be used in other apps, BUT I can also see DAZ taking that away in the name of fighting piracy, restricing its content use solely to within DS, especially if they fail to get anyone else to sign on to their encryption scheme.) And -- as I've said -- I think this is DAZ laying the basis for things like subsciption-based app, content, and render access, given that things seems to be trending that way, first with Adobe and now with Autodesk. Laugh at me now if you like, but see if it doesn't actually come to pass in some form if they can get THIS to fly. I've had conversations where people pooh-poohed the idea of DAZ ever implementing DRM on its content, precisely because it would be alienating, and yet here it is.
Like I said before, you're conflating an honest assesment of the situation for condoning the acts of pirates.
or a faster more reliable way of finding something within 100 GB+ library -- something like that: an ACTUAL user experience.
That is what this whole new system aims to address. Content management is an issue, and that is what this change is mainly about. You are choosing to focus and speculate on the DRM issue when none of us have actually seen how it is going to work yet.
Greetings,
These are some great questions. They've stated that the license server is only used the once, the first time you sign in, to retrieve your key. Once its there, any content you've installed is usable, on or offline, which should help with the extended period of offline time consideration. (Poser breaking because of offline time was specifically cited as something they did not want to occur.) The amount of data, I can't speak to. They've indicated that it's essentially just metadata that gets downloaded, unless you're installing, and then it's just that content, but there's more details elsewhere in the voluminous threads. :) They've indicated that they measured encrypted/unencrypted performance and found that it didn't have a material effect on performance. # of installed items vs. startup speed is a fun question; my own software (that is used by a few thousand folks each week) sucks for that, so it'd be a good thing to know. That said, having ~5,000 items in Smart Content for myself doesn't seem to have slowed it down. Export works just fine.
And this is the thing; it does install parallel to your existing version, so you can run them both at the same time. But I understand that, and it's the hardest part. Until folks are comfortable trying it, they're going to have a fear of what it might do wrong. But as a beta, there's a lot of people who can't/won't try it.
It's a conundrum, and it leaves folks (like you, and many others) unsure, and expecting the worst, which is stressful and just...not where anybody wants to be.
-- Morgan
Morpheon's comments about library size and lack of organization echoes my main concern...
My DIM Download directory has 18,227 files in it and is 355 GBs.
My Runtime library is 438 GBs.
So, theoretically... Let's assume that each item that DAZ Connect has to download is 15k. I think that is a reasonably conservative estimate on size for the metadata and an icon image.
18,226 / 2 = 9,113. That is my DIM Download directory count (minus one for a subdirectory) divided by two since there are two files for each item.
9,113 x 5k = 136,695k. So almost 140 megs. Conservatively.
A more likely estimate is in the 25k to 30k, which is twice my estimate above.
Why does that number alarm me? Because knowing my luck, the morning before I have to get on a plane, DS is suddenly going to require this download. I am not saying that it will happen, just that Murphy's Law dictates that it will happen at that time.
I have made a considerable monetary investment to have this much content. And I don't earn any money off of this content. This is purely a hobby. So when a game change in technology occurs I think I am reasonable in being concerned.
Like I said: one that has sent the DAZ staff scrambling to find a work-around for, because their proposed default method will negatively impact many of their customers, but which was also apparently completely unanticipated (God only knows how), and which has to be done in a fashion to conform to the DRM scheme but which also doesn't nuke usability. That's C.Y.A. -- nothing "improved" about it.
The only aspect of the DRM scheme I'm speculating on is how far DAZ will try to push it. (Short answer: as far and as hard as they can without adversely impacting the cash flow.) They've pretty much told us everything else: 128-bit encryption key assigned to each user to be used with encrypted files. They say the bridges to other apps will be maintained, but I have my doubts.
My understanding is the massive dump will be the first time...after it's populated/validated that first time only the actual contents will be large.
Greetings,
Zev0 answered this best. A faster, more reliable way of finding things in my 216G library is exactly what the user experience side of this is all about.
But maybe you have been given the truth; that it's all of these things. Automating downloads and Smart Content management inside the application is about making it so folks can find the things they've bought easier. Downloading directly to the install locations (no zips) is about speeding up the user experience for updates. Encrypting the content at rest on disk is about foiling the pirates. All of these things are true, and they all work together.
They've been pretty outspoken that export still works; the primary reason (if I can guess) is that exported objects don't contain all the rigging, relationships, and other pieces that make the product more than just an object, so if someone 'steals' the exported content, it's lower quality than what you can get from DAZ directly.
Not gonna laugh. I don't think they'll do subscription based app; they've seen how much money they can make with a free app, and selling the content. Render access, now that'd be a fun conversation. Tell me you wouldn't be into uploading your scene file and getting back a 10,000 iteration render five minutes later from their super-powerful VCA render appliance? :) Okay, maybe you wouldn't, but offering it as an option to all their users...? That's a no-brainer. Would they remove the local ability to render? Nope, it wouldn't be in their best interests. (Edit: To clarify, it wouldn't because users can see exactly what they're going to get through their scene working, and then when they want it rendered to a level without noise, etc., they click a 'cloud render' button. I'm not saying they're going to do this, but wow, I hope they do. :) )
So sure, some of that's probably in the future. Doesn't sound scary to me...but everybody's gotta make the best call they can. This is a beta, and it's worth trying, and absolutely none of the theorized awfulness is even on the horizon.
I think things'll calm down some as they add the offline capability, and stuff like that.
-- Morgan
edit: noticed it had been answered already.
The Cable Guy was released in 1996, wouldn't have worked.
Just to give you some assurances and since this is a new question, I'll pop back in just for this one.
You never _have_ to download the full set of metadata, if you work in offline mode and install offline packages then things will work a lot like DIM does today, just installing the metadata of things you actually install. (Or, you could just never connect and still just use packages from DIM)
The reason we have it fetch all the metadata instead of just the installed metadata is twofold. Firstly it is to make it so that if you load a scene that references something you own but don't have installed it can give you a helpful popup instead of just loading in the Michelin Man and giving you a popup letting you know some obscure file couldn't load and hopefully you can have your inner Sherlock Holmes sleuth out which product might give you that file. Secondly it is so that fetching metadata becomes much more one-sided, otherwise we would have to send up a lot more data about what exists on your system for it to figure out what metadata to fetch and we don't want to intrude on anyone's privacy even to that small extent.
(EDIT: It's late, I'm tired, so I hope this says what I think it does.)
I'm trying it now; I was dubious, but I thought I'd rather find issues I don't like now, than after beta; the issue for me was the drive I use for content is a 500GB SSD, and not enough space for a complete library dl;
I don't like having to log on even once to with Daz to prove who I am. Because like someone else said, Murphy loves screwing with us, so the time we need to log on quick, will be the time something else goes wrong. Than there's the issues about how many folks have been burnt by DRM, and the companies that proclaimed it as the second coming. They lied. It wasn't. People lost money.
Everyone objecting to the issues raised, continually ignores this.
So, I'll be testing it out (and leaving the computer on all night as even with a very fast connection, it's only some hours in to the full download) and if it turns out I can reinstall from a back up without having to log on, then I might consider buying that content as a test when it first appears.
Otherwise I'll be voting with my digital feet.
I don't trust companies - sure Daz seem a lot better than most - but they (other companies) continually prove themselves untrustworthy; the last time I got burnt by a product, was when I went Betamax, or advised Dad as I wasn't old enough then. It tought me an important lesson though - I made damn sure DVDs were real before I started buying them, I waited evern longer over Bluray, and I've only ever bought CDs and DVDs for music; although I rarely listen to it, and so don't buy much. (I like silence, and enjoy the ticking of the Grandfather clock from three rooms away - it's bloody noisy).
That is what this is all about; not that we think Piracy is good, but that we don't trust the motivations of a company - and Daz'a customer service is great, full of nice friendly, helpful people.
Experience has taught us to fear the unknown; and to not trust what a company says. People (myself included) have spent hundreds or thousands with Daz, having that vanish into a digital black hole is a genuine fear that is only just now being addressed.
Being able to download unencrypted zips for your current products is planned to be available forever, when those purchases were made even though it isn't explicitly stated in the EULA you purchased with the assumption that you could get that unencrypted zip. Changing the rules post-purchase is just not something a nice company does and I like to think we are a nice company. DIM will still be usable for many years to come, I'm not going to give it the forever guarantee because it does require some additional server resources and the like so if the usage drops to infinitesimal levels we may take those servers offline.
Specifically to prevent Daz Connect from overwriting or interfering with DIM installed content everything that it installs loads into the "/data/cloud/" directory of your first mapped path. There will probably be some better configuration for that later, but for this beta that is where it goes. DIM content is still totally usable in 4.9, no need to redownload everything. If you have both versions installed (so you have Poser/Carrara support while still getting the instant fixes from Daz Connect) Daz Studio prefers content from the Daz Connect version.
I answer the metadata question, hopefully to your satisfaction here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/935961/#Comment_935961
While the in-memory version of the key is the same for your account regardless of the machine, which allows for copying the encrypted files between machines, the stored version of that key is encrypted using a key generated from machine specific data. Also, the limit of one machine online at a time is the bare minimum that we will allow, depending on what IP address they are coming from and some other factors on your account (like, has your account been around for a long time) most users will be able to connect more than once.