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I think it's pretty much like Dart and Phil have outlined above. Same in LightWave - no magic bullet for perfect deformations. Infact, LightWave cripples you by not having the ability to edit Weight Maps or Morhps in the Layout module...well, you can buy a plugin for $129.00...glad someone is filling the void, but I only do this as a hobby so that's a bit pricey for me. Oh sure there are built in solutions, but they kind of suck, lol.
In Carrara you can pose and then adjust weights and morphs - awesome!!
Oooo...just did some quick tests...in Carrara 8.5 Weight Painting seems a little flakey on my Mac Yosemite... Just quick tests...
1st picture is Carrara 8.5: posed bone is correct in the Vertex Room using 'Animation Mode' with Weight Painting activated, deformed in the Assemble Room, but mesh remains static in the Vertex room?? When 'painting' it snaps into the bone's position, but then snaps back to static mode after releasing the mouse button...
2nd picture is Carrara 8.0 posed bone is correct in the Vertex Room using 'Animation Mode' with Weight Painting activated, with same deformation as Assemble Room. I can 'paint' with proper feedback.
I only upgraded a few months ago to 8.5...well maybe more, but often resort back to 8.0.whatever. Anyone else experience anything like this? Is this yet another Mac gift?
I'm on Windows and always wondered (working in 8.5) what people meant by this stuff working in animation mode - I get the same response you do.
Beyond that, I also find it easier to simply add morphs to figures using 8.xxx (pre-8.5) - the whole switch to accepting Genesis kinda made things a bit different in that regard.
Yes. Earlier in the conversation I was saying that we can always add extra shaping morphs for specific joint rotation fixes. Even though they might have to be applied manually, we'd at least still have them.
And in Carrara, it's so convenient to be able to just create a new morph when needed - on the fly. I love that! It's actually what drew me in to buying Carrara in the first place. Then other things started making me like it a LOT more than everything else!
Depending on what folks are trying to do, Fenric's ERC plugin can help with several animation issues. You can find several related free tutorials on sharecg. Will give you an idea of what it is capable of. Supposedly, any animatable element in the scene can be controlled by any other. I have not successfully set up a controller for a morph to be triggered by a changing bone rotation, but that is probably because I have found it easier to do it manually because I rarely do animations.
Plugin - https://www.daz3d.com/carrara-enhanced-remote-control
Free tutorials - http://www.sharecg.com/fabaone
I have made silly toony figures too but why reinvent the wheel
Yes, weight painting is flaky. Because my figures are usually very low poly, I sometimes just bend the joint, then select each polygon in the joint sequentially, and manually adjust the weights among the bones.
Agree with Wendy. Yes, for humanoid figures, much more efficient to make full body morphs for genesis generation figures. That way Daz's joint corrective morphs and other posing enhancements are incorporated. I make my own figures for my own use because I enjoy it, but would not try to distribute them.
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Weight Painting in Carrara desperately needs some kind of 'Info' palette...I have selected a vertex and its value is...? Oh wait...I can't...wait, can I?
Light Brown Grey to Bright Yellow?....thank you user interface but is this a value from 0-100... -100-0-100 ...0-1??
I know, if it works visually then cool...but sometimes some kind of numerical feedback helps...
Cheers all!
Diomede -10 points =P
So if one uses erc for joint bend morphs, the buyer of the character would have to have it as well? Just have it, or have it and know how to use it???
And for you guys that do have carrara characters, links please, I'm from Missouri =)
Regarding numeric values for bone weights, there is a limited ability to adjust them numerically by selecting a vertex or polygon or group of them in animation mode and then looking under the "bone" tab. Sometimes I will get an inexplicable error in this mode, which can be ignored and bypassed by adding any bone to the list of bones available for the vertex or polygon.
Here are some of my silly claymation / puppetoon characters.
Hi Diomede, thanks for the reminder and the 'work around' tip...I haven't personally experienced that error but I'll be on the look out for it...that error there, lurking around the corner...
But back to weights, I have recent bad memories of adjusting one bone and Carrara kind of 'tickles' the values of other bones? I'm kind of pressed for time this morning so I'll have to wait until later to make a test scene I can wreck.
They are awesome - an entire cast of a major network cartoon!
+1 I Love Diomede's characters, vehicles and creatures!
Just my 2 cents
The main issue with a "carrara native" character is that it will only be useful to Carrara users,. .. it can't be used in Poser or DS
whereas,. a figure made for use in Poser or DS ..can be used in Carrara.
that's why most Carrara users load a premade DS/Poser figure,.. it's easier than making your own.
You can choose to Model the figure in Carrara, Hexagon, Z-Brush, 3D-Coat, or any other modeling software you'd like
Poser and DS don't have any modeling capabilities, so,.. ALL models for those programs are made in some other modelling software. (modo, silo, z-brush etc,..)
those models are then exported as OBJ, ..then imported into either Poser or DS and rigged, weighted etc. and saved as Figures (Preset characters).
As far as clothing ,. that's the same process, using the same Rig from the figure.
Carrara has all the tools to Create unique figures, and create conforming clothing which follows the figure, as well as having the advantages of dynamic hair, and a full set of 3D tools to create buildings environments props etc,.. everything you need to create either a still image or an animation.
You may as well ask why there are no Premade figures for Lightwave, 3D-Max, Maya, Blender etc...
it's because those programs,.. Like Carrara, are full 3D suites,. where the users have all the tools to Model, Rig, Texture, and animate their own creations, whether that's a human or a monster, a space ship or a house,.
Fortunately,. or Unfortunately,. (depending on your perspective) most full 3D suites don't have the ability to load and work with Poser or DS figures.
Carrara does,. and as far as i'm aware,. it's the only one which can do that.
If you use a program like Poser or DS,. you're "limited" to purchasing premade content,. since they don't have the ability to do anything else.
if you use a program like Maya, or Cinema4D etc,. then it's "expected" that you'll be making your own, at some point.
As for premade "Poses" for Carrara figures,. ..the concept of premade poses comes from Poser and DS,. where the emphasis is on making it simple and quick for the user to jump in and have fun,. without understanding how it all works, or learning anything.
the opposite is true for full 3D suites,. you need to learn how to use them,. learn how to model,. how to light, how to animate etc..
anyone who has spent time selecting and posing individual finger joints will understand that the process isn't as instantly rewarding as applying a "premade" pose.
If the goal is to sell users on the concept that they can be 3D artists or animators, (if they purchase enough stuff). then, instant gratifications is a must.
Carrara "can" save NLA poses, or animations, but it's not the same as Poser or DS , which create a nice thumbnail image, and can save "Partial" poses,. Hands, feet, face, etc..
As far as "parameters"
Parameters are a list of Morphs and/or Transforms,. or mixed Morph-forms,. which uses ERC to combine a morph and transform.
Carrara doesn't have that ability natively , although there is the ERC plugin from Fenric, as has been mentioned previously,.
Any "Carrara" character which used that function would require the user to have the ERC plugin,. and possibly understand how to use that plugin,. to get the best results out of any ERC enabled figure,. much like Mimic for Carrara,. it can be used "as is" on a Mimic enabled DS figure,. or customised by the user to work better, or with a custom Carrara created figure with facial morphs.
Once you model a figure in Carrara, and create some morphs for that figure,. then you'll see those morphs show up under the parameters tab for that figure.
Once your Carrara figure is rigged,. you'll also notice that the option to "Fit To" becomes available,. so you could create clothing or poly-mesh hair, which would work just like Poser or DS clothing and hair.
this is where the problem comes for selling content for carrara,.
If i can make my own,. why buy yours.
Time saving and skill learning are the two obvious factors in why someone would buy premade,. rather than build from scratch. but all the tools are there, and anything thats being built for carrara, can be made by anyone using carrara,. given the skill and time to learn.
for me, personally, I enjoy learning and trying to improve what little skills I have by making my own stuff from scratch.
thats' enough (possibly too much) ranting from me.
just my opinions on why there's a lack of Carrara custom figures, ready to buy.
:)
...and with all of that said (by 3DAGE above), these are also the things that Daz3d knows all too well. So trying to get them to publish a Carrara-specific human-like figure would be difficult at best - I think.
See... that's the magic of Carrara. We can do things as they are done in the more popular 3D modeling/animation suites, like Modo, 3ds Max, Maya, etc., and/or we can also use the Poser/DS technology to do it via presets and purchased products. It's very unique in that area.
The conventions I was going for a few years ago as a Carrara Cheerleader, was that we could make Poser and/or DS content for publishing, and include with that stuff Carrara files, like shader presets, perhaps even NLA clips, though totally unnecessary since Carrara can use PZ2 and DUF poses, etc.,
Yes, I think the massive effort involved in making your own unique character means that - if you are interested in selling it as a commercially viable project - then you will want to make it for the mazimum market possible. Making a figure that can be used in Daz Studio, Poser AND Carrara therefore makes a lot of sense. Making a "quick and dirty" figure in Carrara for a specific scene or animation also makes sense - if you are making it for your own project, you can often take short-cuts that would not be acceptable in a fully commercial figure.
Yes. And if anyone interested in this stuff has never rigged anything in Carrara yet, I strongly suggest changing that - Now. Just go in and make something... anything... and rig it.
I've made these special little things in a very short period of time, and they're actually quite cool. The rigging is simple and they have lots of morphs to take them from a little dragonling sort of creature into something that resembles a bird, shown here as a gull. Simple repeating NLA clips make them fly, but thhey are capable of so much more!
But even for inanimate objects, a simple rig can allow us to change an object in So Many ways. I was working on as another Carrara-Specific product that includes some elements that start life as a simple pedestal with a panel on it. The whole simple prop has a rig on it, however, so we can turn the panel into a gigantic screen, the pedestal into a massive arching structure, or maybe have the screen a small keypad, the pedestal a thin mount that hangs from the ceiling... it's amazing the possibilities I've found with this simple thing.
Yes, rigging can be very useful even for non-animated objects. Another idea is to take a straight road section and use rigging to make it curve, bank and twist however you want.
Yup- that is me! Shortcuts all over the place. One time I only rigged the top half of a figure because it was in a vehicle with only the top half visible, and I never got around to a scene with the legs visible. In Blazing Saddles, the citizens of Rock Ridge only build the front facade of the buildings of their fake town to lure in Harvey Corman's evil minions. If it is good enough for Mel Brooks and Clevon Little, it is good enough for me.
That is one of the things I really enjoy about Carrara, the ability to minimally add custom props to fit a specific scene or series of scenes. As I migrate to Studio, I am finding myself over-modeling because stuff has to be created outside Studio and brought in without being able to go back and forth with the camera angle, etc. Well, not conveniently anyway. Same is true for materials and shaders and scene lighting. Going forward, I will be making more full body morphs for genesis characters, and am now trying to learn how to make geografts, for Studio. But I want to tell at least one story starting from a blank 3D canvas, and I still think Carrara is the best way for me to do that.
I think I just lost a bunch of points by mentioning one of those two programs that shall not be named.
...and I truly commend you for that! But am also truly confident that you can do that - and do it well. So cool to see how far you've come since we started talking about all of this.
On the note you've quoted from Phil, yeah... it's amazing how often I make quick things that don't end up looking like quick, simple things. I don't know that I cut corners, but rather just keep it simple. Seeing how vfx artists do this stuff for films - often a ot more simplistic than one might think - has really thrown my creative juices into "On" position. It's amazing how quickly we can make stuff to realize our dreams in 3d - especially with Carrara as our suite!
games partially rig background characters too
I have examined a few and some only have the bones needed to strike an anvil in a blacksmith scene etc
for one’s own creations its expected
I have used morphs to animate background characters too
This is all very interesting, though occasionaly over my head.
I understand all the resistence to this idea, but I would like to see a genesis-like character that only works in Carrara. Repeat, it will ONLY work in Carrara.
Suicide? Maybe not.
If the character was spectacular enough, and versatle enough, wouldn't that attract more people to try out Carrara?
Isn't that exactly what Daz is now trying to do with Studio?
A unique new native character in Carrara would fill a void, and help to set Carrara apart from a dependency on other content creators.
It would have to be awesome, though.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Well, first of all I think what you might be reading as "Resistance" is actually not resisting, but rather pointing out strengths and weakness about Carrara - stuff that really needs a clear understanding before getting neck deep in a huge, time/money consuming project.
For example, to create your dream wish, a Genesis-Like figure to ONLY work in Carrara we'd either need to require that the end user owned Fenric's ERC for Carrara plugin, as already mentioned, or would require a different plugin that could be included with the figure, simply because Carrara doesn't contain the tools for creating joint-controlled-morphs or morph-controlled-morphs.
One could do all of the morph connections and rigging in either DS or Poser and use their technology to build it in, then import it into Carrara as if it was a DS or Poser figure, then save it in Carrara and sell that version, but that's kind of defeating the purpose.
MatCreator had a great idea of, instead of making a single figure that can accept morph injections and be changed into a bazillion different things, make a very specific figure - a character. Bill the Pirate, perhaps. Then Jane the Piratess. Then Polly the Parrot. That sort of thing.
Will it sell? Maybe. It would have to be really spectacular. Read 3DAGE's post above. Daz3d has the biggest monopoly on purchaseable figures on the planet. And they're dolls. Dolls with near unlimited posibilities. In truth, they hire top-notch graduates in the field to make that happen - read all of the latest tech notes as they trickle down from those leading the way... like being the first on the planet to offer Iray, for example. They use 3d scanners, hire models for textures, they are endeavoring to constantly push forward with the latest top tech, and their customer base helps them.
They started by offering a higher-end human for Poser users. Victoria, the Millennium Woman. She was amazing! When I got into it, Victoria 3 was free - the base model. Fantastic and hard to beat - maybe not as "the perfect woman figure", but certainly as "The Best morphable 3d Human Female for the masses". Tons of free clothes, hair and textures were already available for her. Michael 3 came out the same way - amazing.
Predatron's figure offerings are fantastic! They included what Daz3d's Generation 4 figures called "Morphforms" before they did - and even more of them. Instead of making "A Better Figure", they sold them as Different (Demon, Troglodytes, Goblins, Angor, etc.,) or Distant (Low Rez) - all of which are highly polished and top-notch, proving that it CAN be DONE!
Carrara-Only can be a hard sell at a publisher. I only say this because the publisher will likely question putting on their front page something brand new developed for software that they no longer wish to develop. That's a hard sell to the company that 'knows' they're not planning major development on the software (I'm not saying that they're not... just using this as an example). Rendo might be different, and go ahead and take it on. But to get it selling, one would have to do ones own marketing - promotion.
So I think where it might seem like a negative outlook, it's actually more beneficial to keeping Carrara "alive" to instead create something that is made for the software on the bleeding edge of technology, and include for free, right with it, the necessary files to 'bring it to life' in Carrara. It gets people wondering why. It's an amazing software, they know that. They've heard it before. And now they have free files for it.
My Animation Kits were made for Poser (animated PZ2), DS (aniBlocks) and Carrara (NLA Clips) and I think some people may have bought Carrara simply because of my love for it. I'm never quiet about that and, back then I was really very vocal about it - even to the powers that be at Daz3d. But many of those wonderful folks are gone now, I think.
Anyway, just food for thought, my friend.
an undead monkey
no one has one yet! ( that I've found )
Resistence, as in assuming that it is ill-fated from the very beginning, because we lack the resources, or because the big boys (such as Maya) don't have a native character, or whatever. I've heard all those sentiments in this thread. For me, the general tone of this discussion is more why it can't be done, rather than why it can. I see it going around in circles, then basically fading from view like so many other threads. That's why I made a specific statement with a specific goal - a figure that only works in Carrara, with advantages that only Carrara can provide. Does Carrara have attributes that would allow the creation of such a ground-breaking character? I don't know.
For sure, I have no intent to offend. But I do have strong opinions. I may be a noob in Carrara, but I have a lot of life experience. I've seen these basic themes play out many times in similar situations.
If ERC is essential, make a deal with Fenric to include the plugin with every character sold. Seems like a win-win to me.
Yes, it would be a challenge. But I've seem people in this community do amazing things with very little resources. I've learned to never underestimate the creativity of my fellow man.
There are plenty on people in the Carrara community who are great at promotion. I don't see much of a role for Daz here.
I may be misunderstanding you here. Daz has moved on. They are not going to include something new for free in Carrara. Carrara already has a lot of free content. If G8 was free in Carrara, would that bring Carrara more traffic? Probably not that much, because G8 is also available in another program. But if the character can ONLY be used in Carrara, you have something unique, and I would rather be in a position of promoting a unique strength. I honestly think that it may be the best way for Carrara to reverse course and be considered at least "interesting" again by the 3d community in general. And I think that this is part of MatCreators intent in his original inquiry - to make Carrara a topic of conversation again.
I remember in my earliest days of Carrara, I wondered why Carrara had so many native models, but no models of grass and rocks. Several experienced folks gave explanations of why those models were not included. It all sounded so reasonable, I was almost persuaded. But then PhilW posted that he too found it odd that no rock and grass models were included.
I would like to see a native Carrara character, which takes full advantage of the unique qualities of Carrara. To me, it is something that is obviously missing, if Carrara is indeed as powerful as advertised.
Like I said, I have strong opinions. :)) I apologize if anything I said has offended anyone.
I haven't perused the Native Content recently, but if memory serves me correct...most, if not all 'geometry' models are Spline Models? I'd have to sift through them again, but I have a vague memeory of looking for Vertex Models in Native Content and finding...none. I could have easily missed something.
Edited to add: The Spline Modeler is awesome, I wasn't at all trying to suggest the Native Content models are inferior or anything...just odd no Vertex Models?
Edit #2: The rocket blasting off in my avatar was modeled in the Spline Modeler. Inspired by a technique modeling an airplane by lofting 'slices' made in a 2D vector app...and loading those into cross sections... It was the Carrara Studio 3 Handbook by Mike de la Flor that demonstrated that technique for me.
UB, What I meant is that, when folks (especially publishers) see that it only works in Carrara, they will pass it by, if they don't have or want Carrara. It's not like there aren't some amazing figures already available that works in their platform of choice. So you're really only going to target Carrara owners, and publishers that are happy to support Carrara-only products.
As for promotion, I didn't mean finding someone to make promo shots that are attractive. Getting word to vast web can be costly - not to mention adding $50 to the base cost for the plugin.
On the other hand, make the thing to work in DS and/or Poser (actually a lot easier because they have the tools we're missing) and we're automatically getting seem by thousands (or a lot more) more eyes. And since it comes with Carrara support, it gets "Carrara" into many of those eyes as well - others will just ignore the fine print and extraneous files.
Daz Studio is often looked upon as an enemy in this part of the forum - it doesn't need to be, even if we're not in it for the figures. It has a lot going for it as a toolkit.
Since Daz3d made Daz Studio Pro free (at that time listed as "for a Limited Time"), they have skyrocketed to the top of the game. Poser is still a very strong and great software, but it truly lost a lot of its following to latest versions after that move - especially since DS also granted nVidia's new Iray engine.
I say this because, being a former PA I've seen amazing numbers. Number I know I'd not have seen by doing my own promotions, even if I had several hundred pals helping me to spread the word. Daz3d is everywhere all the time. The marketing department is top of their game and really know how to get attention. They're awesome too! I love everyone I worked with here!
That all said, I know that I've been spouting this stuff, but I certainly didn't mean for it to be off-putting toward trying to get a Carrara-only figure onto the market. I was just suggesting that, if it's going to be human, this might be more profitable, doable, etc., because it will also be able to appeal to more than just a few users. Many die-hard modeling Carrara users don't need or want dollies.
But when MatCreator mentioned making unique individuals... yeah. Why not?
I haven't tried it yet, but what about adding bones beyond the confines of the main skeleton, rather than using ERC?
Example: In the example of the infamous elbow tip, it would be fun to try putting a separate bone at the outer tip of the elbow joint, so that small portion of the mesh (fully definable by the weight map) can be sculpted individually when the need arises.
Genesis 3 adds this for the face, and is very similar to the 'tags' I was mentioning up a ways. Anywhere the mesh might need some extra tweaking, maybe add a separate bone for assistance.
If this fails, another idea would be to make an entirely unique skeleton with extra joints built in, but many users would certainly complaint when they find that none of their BVH files work.
Compatibility with how people WANT to work is essential.
As a consumer whom wants to make animated movies, that compatibility is what draws me to Daz3d's Genesis 2 and earlier figures, and is why I won't buy any of their newer ones.
If there was a Carrara-Only figure that didn't work with the many hundreds of dollars I've invested into animation data, I certainly wouldn't spend money on it. I might try it if it was free, but if my aniBlocks and/or PZ2 animations didn't work... I wouldn't use it.
...and I certainly would go out and buy Carrara so that I could buy a figure - special as it might be.
Diomede's collection might actually change my mind on that, however. It's so unique and it all fits together. He definitely has been in the right track, right from the start, I think.
Monsters that simply do not exist on the market today would also be a real Win, I think.
I could be the least cool person in the multiverse, but I still hold to the idea that allowing for either DS or Poser or (even better) both would be a wise way to get it into the hands of a lot more people, which to me is a win.
(Dart is WAAAY in the negative Cool points levels)
Dart, you have very strong opinions too. :)) If necessary, we will hopefully agree to disagree.
I think that if we keep doing things the same way, we will get the same result. Back in the early days with Daz, Carrara was simply king. How on Earth did it drop so low in the estimation of the 3D world?
Some of it - maybe most of it - was because Carrara users became dependent on Daz making their latest figures compatible in Carrara. Sure, they were amazing figures, but they were also like a drug which everyone willingly injected. When Daz took away the drug, Carrara started to look weak. To put it more graphically, Carrara users started to look like dogs circling under the dinner table, hoping to catch some scraps from the Daz Studio masters sitting at the table.
I would like to see Carrara develop a stronger identity, independent of Studio. Some of this can be done through plugin development, and some could be done by Carrara establishing its own character or set of characters.
None of this is about blaming Daz, at least for me. DS is not the adversary. If anything, it can be a model for developing a more successful Carrara. And by that, I mean the current-era DS model, which no longer tries to make its characters compatable with other programs.
I can only speak for myself. I would have been infinitely happier as a new Carrara user if it had come with its own characters. I'm glad we had Genesis, but dealing with it is still sometimes a pain.