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In many ways, UB, I have to simply agree to agree as well!
Well said, my friend. And I'm with you completely on that!
I can see the appeal of a Carrara figure and I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm if they want to pursue this. But you also have to be realistic about it. I would estimate that there are no more than a few hundred regular Carrara users, and that number is unlikely to increase given that Daz appears to have given up on development. If someone is doing this for fun or to support their own project or whatever other reason, then fine they can do it. But if they are doing it with commercial intent, then I don't think they would be able to get a decent return for their efforts. Making a good new figure is a major undertaking, especially if you are looking to compete head-on with Daz's figures. If you look at Hivewire, they did exactly that and my view is that are struggling. It's not just the base figure, you need to attract other artists to make clothing, hair, characters etc for your figure.
I could go on but you get the idea. I think if something is to succeed for a Carrara figure, it needs to be different. I think maybe there is a place for a very low poly figure that can be used as a background character and for massive crowd scenes, and that is something that plays to Carrara's strengths with its replication system. And having thousands of figures in a scene will make Daz Studio people sit up and take notice! Just one idea - I am sure there are others.
Why couldn't I get those words to flow out of me? That's all I was trying to say earlier... but I get all roundy... nonsensical... I'm sorry... what was I saying again?
This is exactly where the resistence is. What I'm proposing (based on MatCreator's original inquiry) is not realistic.
From a realistic perspective, it is ridiculous to assume that Carrara will ever again be relevent in the 3D world. There are an overwhelming number of reasons why this is considered to be the truth. And we have those reasons thrown in our faces every month by visitors in this forum who drop in to tell us how bad the situation is. Even the most optimistic among us ends up conceding many of those points. After all, it's only logical to assume that Carrara's best days are over, right? That is the realistic, conventional way of thinking.
However, a lot of things have been done in this world which were originally not considered realistic. If you accept the possibility that so-called "outside-the-box" thinking exists, then there is always a chance that conventional thinking about what is real, and what isn't, is simply wrong.
I think that the Hivewire situation is apples and oranges. They are trying to compete directly with Daz, in Daz's native platform. We have a unique and different platform. In the genius of the Carrara design, is there a way to integrate within it a charactrer that simply works better than others, irrespective of platform?
Further, can a character, which is fully integrated into Carrara's native functions, reverse the slow decline and put Carrara back on the map again? These are questions worth asking in my opinion. HOW this is could realistically be done - resources, etc - is a different question. I am aware of at least some of the difficulties. But overcoming difficulties and thinking outside the box is what creative people do.
Phil, just to be clear, in no way am I saying that you - or Dart - are not creative. Indeed, you are two of the most creative people I know. All I'm saying is, can we abandon the logical limitations for a bit, and instead ask "what if?" For me, that was MatCreator's original intent. He didn't want to discuss the other guys. He wanted to focus on what was possible in Carrara.
Well I also said that I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm so I'll leave it at that and see what ideas people can come up with!
Right. Me either.
Sparrowhawke, Philemo and Alberto have made amazing plugins without charging a penny. It's the passion that drives them. Just like Diomede and many others.
So there's nothing stopping a passionate user/creator from making a go at a Carrara-specific figure and either selling it or putting it up for free.
I think that Diomede might agree that the easiest approach to a fully rigged figure might be to use the tools that already exist in DS or Poser, but I'm guessing (or remembering something he already said?)
But it doesn't always have to be about 'simple' or 'easiest'. Sometimes artists like to just think outside the box and push forward, pass or fail. Like I said, Faba made a Carrara-only figure already. She never distributed it that I'm aware of. Many of us asked! It was cool! That was part of the driving force behind Fenric making his ERC for Carrara plugin. She gave him guidance and requirements and tested his work - the plugin we have installed today is the result of their long hours of toiling away to make it happen. I still haven't got it to work as a simple morph-controlled ERC though... but I haven't practiced enough with it yet either.
Sorry, I know that I got on a soapbox there. In doing so, I completely glossed over your interesting suggestion:
I am probably the last person to be commenting in this thread about specific developments, but this sounds - at the very least - like one good direction to go. If a character is low poly, does that mean it also must be low quality? How high in poly count can a figure be and still be replicated easily in Carrara? And how do those numbers compare to something like V4?
V4 is excessively high poly figure. G3-8 can be called low poly and they are extremely improved compared to V4.
Hi UB :)
Carrara has the ability to use LOD (level of detail) (similar to a game engine which shows less detail on distant objects, and more detail as the camera aproaches)
V4 and M4 figures are supplied with LOD figures,. see Runtime/geometries/daz people/blMilMan_M4_LOD,... or blMilWom_v4_LOD
there are 1k, 2k, 4k and 17k versions
these can be setup in carrara to appear as "stand-in's" for the full V4 figure while you're working on a complex scene,. Less memory used.
At render time the Full figure is rendered.
it would depend on your system resources, more than carrara's ability to handle the replication of the objects,. since,.. whether you have an object,. replicated once, or 100,000 times it makes no difference to the way carrara handles that source object.
You can also add a replicator ,.. to another replicator (nesting)
so,. you could have some objects added to a replicator to make 100,000 objects,. then add that replicator to another replicator to create 100,000 replications of that.
one day, daz studio characters wont work in carrara, then what ya gonna do =P
as i mentioned before, the goal is not necessarily to compete with daz studio or poser figures as much as it is establishing a set standard/practice of doing things for character creation... this "standard", would be universal, meaning what i create would be "acceptable" for use by others, and the "making it marketable" is nothing more than a "seal of approval"... make sense now?!?
daz studio with get you as far as humans, but nevermind that, what if i wanted to make a poseable chain? a beetle? an octopus?!? a beast with a sharks body, lobster arms, lion legs and mosquito wings? an elephant with squid arms? my mother-in-law?!? me, i dont want to depend on studio, because then i am limited to what the community offers, and since i "am" a carrara user, if i was going to make something, id just rather make it for carrara. but id like to know that when i made it, it was made "ok"... for myself, and my own style of work, i like to variate things with morphs, and would need access to poses... i dont animate, but you still like to mix things up when scene composing, try different angles, different poses... thats not a novice request, its smart sense to boost creative flow... id rather sit one day and make a massive plethora of poses to be able to access instead of "creating" on the fly... im not technical, im creative, and if i had to stop and pose a hand grasping a sword in the middle of "working", id go nuts... the "f" with that, LOL
you can best believe, that whether or not max, maya or lightwave have preset characters, they still have a "standard practice" for making characters in their program... are we opposed to the practice or opposed to carrara characters?!?!? in what way couldnt a carrara character "compete" with a studio character? sales? features and functionality?!?
are we saying that a studio character would be better than a carrara character? why???
the future can decide if its marketable or not. thats not the concern "for now"... and we "do" use and always will need characters for carrara, why should where they come from matter? its just that this is the carrara forum, and i use carrara =P
unified brain...
+10000 points =P
also..... i have to say this. ive been poking around and it seems that the "poserverse" we exist in is rather small and cut off =/ i dont think daz studio is the "king" we believe it to be, ive seen things to make me doubt that, and that says a lot. our exposure is limited, BECAUSE we exist in the poserverse, and even further weve become too comfortable and reluctant to explore outside of it. dont get me wrong, i "like" it here, but its like quicksand, you keep sinking the more you "move", LOL if youre not saying hell yeah, we damn sure should be making carrara characters, well, thats its failing =/ part of the solution (help carrara evolve to increase interest and development), or part of the problem (no further updates)...
Matcreator - you used the name of a program that shall not be named. -1000p.
I intend to contine to make my own Carrara-rigged characters for my Brash Lonergan project, and for occasional ad hoc or monthly challenge projects. But on the whole, I will be migrating to Blend... or Stu... Therefore, I have been learning to make JCM and FBM morphs for genesis-generation figures using Stu...
i smell a defector...
-100000 pts =P
im curious, why the transition?
Nope, not a defector.
Diomede is one of those rare birds who enjoys expanding his toolkit almost as much as he enjoys rendering. He has very little bias, and seems to enjoy just about everything, yet maintains very high standards.
And I should add, he continues to do as much as anyone to promote and advance Carrara and this community.
Not many like him.
Oh, I'm a defector - only nobody in the Studio threads wants me.
(and a bunch more points are lost!)
Just kidding, I have found very helpful people in the Studio threads whenever I ask. I'd name a few people except I'd feel bad for leaving people out. The difference is that when I ask how to do something in Carrara, the forum regulars tell me how to do it IN CARRARA. When I ask how to do the same thing for a Studio render, the answer is often to do it in a different program and import it. Still trying to get my head around that.
But back to the subject at hand. Happy to support an effort for Carrara-rigged figures. Not to disagree with PhilW, but I see very little value in trying to compete with Lorenzo LoRes for background figures used by people trying to do photo-realistic renders. I think there is greater potential for a stylized figure meant for a different kind of project altogether. See the figures generally used here - http://www.animation-festivals.com/
Our very own PhilW has a great non-photoreal animation done in Carrara. Way to go Phil!
I like him
3DAGE, thanks for the answers! Since Daz is supplying the different resolutions of the product, I assume that DS has LOD as well?
Some people here are proposing thinking outside the box, which is not an easy task. You know as much as anyone about how Carrara functions. Is there any quality in a potential Carrara character that would be desireable to you, or that would make you go ...WOW!? Never mind if it is possible. The first thing is just identifying a WOW factor (or factors).
This is an open question to anyone - is there a WOW factor that would blow you away in a new character?
In studio, there's an option in EDIT/Geometry/ add level of detail.
then you would import the LOD figure,. but,.. on trying that just now,. nothing shows up,. which probably shows that I very rarely use DS.
The main advantage/difference in Genesis (from previous figures) was the additional face bones, and better articulation . also quaternion weighting was added which slightly improves on bending,. although there are still additional "products" being sold to improve on that.
Carrara doesn't have that same weight mapping type, but it's not a major issue (IMO)
Carrara already has the ability to create a rig, (either simple or complex) and that includes adding face bones (or bones for any other parts of the figure),. which is something that other 3D suites have been doing for some time now,. Genesis is just "catching up" in that respect.
adding more bones is one thing,. the next issue is being able to easily control and manipulate those bones.
that's normally done by creating a "rig" of helper objects,. (target/helper objects)..AKA (null objects)
each bone would use a "Point at" modifier to point at a helper,. and several bones can also use the same helper or combination of helpers
Faba did some nice work for the ERC plugin where she used custom helper objects to create a rig to easily animate a Hand
those examples are available on shareCG, and have useful documentation PDF.
You don't need ERC to create a helper rig,. but it's a very helpful tool in moving more than one thing at a time.
as for WOW factors, I recall seeing Daz3D figures for the first time and though wow that's great, a ready made articulated figure that can be changed, IF i buy the morph packs, and skin textures, clothing etc,. and they were relatively cheap.
At that time I was using 3D max and had spent several years learning the tools to create my own models and learn rigging, weighting etc,..
So,. ready made "off the shelf" is a big time saver,. so i suppose the WOW factor would really come down to something which saves time. and that get's us back to genesis, which is already there.
having a bunch of premade animations or (a model which is easy to animate quickly), premade skin textures or, (easy to re-texture), morphs to change the figure shape or (easy to adjust the basic shape),. all time savers which allow you to concentrate the effort on visualizing the story you want to tell.
As PhilW points out,. to get a figure to that point isn't easy or quick to do,. it would take a lot of effort and commitment from probably more than one developer.
The end product probably wouldn't sell in the numbers to justify the time taken to get there. then there's the "continued support" for that figure,. either from the same developer, or from others willing to invest time and effort.
It's unusual for a 3D suite like Carrara to have the ability to use a premade figures. and it's not something you see with other 3D suites,. there's no "standard figure" for Maya or Max or lightwave etc...
it's something which I think has hindered carrara users and the wider 3D world from taking Carrara seriously enough to use as a production suite for larger projects, although I'm continually impressed by the work and dedication of those who have tried to place Carrara back into the realm of "Serious" 3D tools. especially when they turn out impressive animations and create custom figures for those animations.
motion capture has also changed the way that 3D is done,. with more emphasis placed on a real live actor's "emotional performance" overlaid onto a model which is custom built and rigged to support the subtle facial articulation of the actor, and carrara is just as capable of being used to do that as any other 3D toolset.
custom figures, like minions, or nemo, don't use premade models which rely on the animator buying premade clothing, hair etc,..
They do take a lot of people with a lot of talent and a lot of effort to create, animate and render a final production which entertains and hopefully captures the hearts and stimulates the imagination of the audience.
If Carrara isn't going to be "supported" by the retailers of a stream of repetitive content (skirts tops hair) then it's no big deal in my opinion, it was never intended to be a vehicle to sell premade content, it was designed to be a 3D suite of tools to allow the creative individual to create whatever they wanted to, just like Lightwave Blender C4d etc..
but at the time of Carrara 4 or 5, Poser was a big thing, with premade human figures, ready to work with, and by adding the ability to import those into carrara, it was an advantage to selling Carrara.
in Hindsight, Carrara being sold to a company selling "poser content", wasn't such a great move to further the development of what is still a great 3D toolset.
Creating a unique animated project which didn't use any "premade content" would be the best Oh WOW factor for carrara (IMO).
It's not easy,.it takes time, and talent.
Blender users tried to create something which, although it ended up being a cut short,.. was sucessful in promoting blender to "serious kit" status among 3D users.
sorry for the long rambling reply :)
lets start this whole thing from "scratch". lets consider it a group project, a community effort, and a grand scale learning experience?!?
change the title to: "id like to make a character in carrara for possible animation purposes/project"...
i will show a model and rig i am working on, and first step i would like to improve the rig and weight painting for better, natural bends. i hope you guys will be able to help me =)
...... ive never used carrara before........... thats the ticket =P
a list of best practices, things to avoid and be aware of, any other tips or things that one should do prior to initiating would be most helpful...
I don't know about best practices but here are a few thoughts.
- if you are serious about making a character from scratch, you will need to be very disciplined in doing it. Each stage in the process - modelling, UV mapping, rigging, weight painting, texturing, posing and animating - needs to be "signed off" before going on to the next stage, as changes later can mean a lot of rework. OK, some things are more flaxible, but if you want to change the base model at a late stage in the process, you are going to have to do a lot of things again.
- there are various ways to add clothing (if indeed you are aiming to have a clothed character - I don't mean naked people, but a character such as Nemo or a Cars character doesn't have clothing). You need to decide how it will be clothed. Having the clothes as part of the base mesh can be more efficient, but less flexible than having different sets of conforming clothing. Or there is now the dynamic clothing option with VWD.
- Does the character have hair and will that be modelled or using Carrara's dynamic hair.
- Will the character be animated or is it more for static images? That could affect some of the design choices that you make. If animated you may need to create (as a minimum) one or more walk cycles to support it.
- If designing an organic character, it often makes sense to do it as a "smoothed" character (what Studio users would call SubD). This can make joints flex more naturally, and you can work with a lighter mesh but still have higher resolution in your final renders - but again this is a design decision that you will need to make early in the process.
- Multiple people can be involved in the various stages, but if so someone needs to lead the project, and be prepared to say "No, this is not good enough", and that is hard even with paid employees, let alone when people are giving freely of their time. So it is a tough job.
As I say, just random thoughts, take or leave as much or as little as you nned.
Sorry, I thought that you were looking for something that hadn't been done in Carrara before, something out of the ordinary. If you want basic tips for making a standard character, there are plenty of folks here who have been there and done that (and I am not on that list).
Good luck!
There's plenty of stuff already for Carrara users to play with.
I have been scratching my head what you could make with Carrara that is purely 'Carrara-esq".
The only things I can come up with are to approach it by using the 'unique' strengths of Carrara - such as Dart used in his PA products once available in daz store.
For example, he concentrated on the plant modeller, terrain, atmospherics, clouds etc etc.
Something reallu useful for Carrara users would be to be able to use Genesis et all in Carrara without having our flies bloated ridiculously - eg to get Carrara to point to externals like morphs etc rather than save it all in one big bloat file.
Now if you can do that, then that would get you in the Carrara Hall of Fame :)
I know that is off topic and not part of the brief, but I cant really think of a reason to reinvent the wheel by making 'new' characters when there are so many to already pick from.
Of course there is the joy of making stuff yourself - but that's another matter :)
before you start have a look at the latest poser humanoids that come with Poser Software - INMHO the bases look really bad
Ps amongst Carrara built in strengths off the top of my head are
modelling, morph adjustment, terrain, plant, metaballs, npr rendering, ocean, other types of rendering, particles, shader room, clouds and atmosphere, inbuilt render passes in the render room
it's a pretty good package
PSs interesting thread about poser characters https://forum.smithmicro.com/topic/2572/content-creation-for-poser/7
In my opinion, the PERFECT starting point for such an adventure begins with page 1 of My Project: Brash Lonergan adventures
Me too!
This one also has a lot of cool stuff in it
► First Steps - Setting up a sample scene in Carrara with plant, terrain, sky and hair
Diomede's wonderful "Starter Thread" for those new to Carrara! "Where do we go now, what do we do next?" Find answers here!
Thanks for the shout out, Dart.
Not my fault you've been such an amazing character modeling inspiration... that's all on You!!!
Also, while mmoir is in the forums, picking his brain is always a good thing. He makes Dynamite characters and their rigging! He's a real pro at it, I think!
https://www.daz3d.com/paleo
This is what I meant... Figures do NOT need to be Daz Studio only, but even still, there are native Carrara features that can be used/applied as well, if done thru Carraras system...
Anyone try any of these guys out in Carrara?!?
any DAZ studio content could be FBX exported in that way
as is though most has to be loaded in a third party app before being able to be used in Carrara as the FBX versions appear incompatible
I do not know if that is fixed with these or not and am not willing to buy one to find out