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This will probably get removed for me saying exactly what others are thinking as well Jack, but that makes the season pass a $149 or more 'pay to win' proposition. Why enter a contest where your image could be the clear wiiner but because you didn't pay the $149 for a 'season pass' you have no chance of winning?
I don't get the analogy I'm afraid. It's like only PC+ members can win the PC+ weekly/monthly contests.. non-members can enter sure, but they can't win for obvious reasons.
How many non PC+ members join the monthly contest? Also the monthly or annual PC+ membership is substantially less than the 'season pass' and isn't plastered all over the main page either.
Pay to win means you have to pay to win. As in, if you don't pay, you can't win. I'm not even sure this qualifies an analogy, it's more of a literal definition. And really, if you can't win a contest, are you actually in the contest by any reasonable interpretation? I'm not sure I see how any reasonable person can conclude an ineligible entry is a real entry. That's just some random artist making art along the same theme as a contest and showing it to people. But yes, anyone can make any art they want.
I'm pretty sure everyone knows PC+ contests are PC+ exclusive - never heard anyone suggest non-PC+ members can enter. With the Season Pass contest, originally it was suggested that anyone can enter, which under normal usage would imply anyone can win.
Non-pc+ members can't really enter the PC+ contest as non-PC+ can't even access the contest submission page or see the results. It's all in the hidden PC+ forum. As for whatever is going on with the Season Pass contest, I don't think Daz has done due diligence on the setup.
This is basically a series of art competitions for Season Pass holders. It's fine to do that, but it should be spelled out that way in the Official Rules. Those seem a bit sparse in this case. The dividing line between contest and sweepstakes is how winners are selected. It's not a sweepstakes as winners are not randomly selected. But the means of winner selection does require clarification.
If you can't win, you're not really in the contest. It occurs to me, one easy solution is to require the use of appropriate paid assets - In this case, that would be Brooke 8.1 with HD add-on. The following contests would require the latest Season Pass figure. And then, of course, everyone who enters is eligible to win. But that does require a transparent method of winner selection.
I was wondering about that myself, as a PC+ member I was curious as to how non members could even see the contest, so I would really like to see Jack explain his answer on that one.
I'm 99% sure that the original statement was that anyone can enter, but the only ones eligible for prices are season pass holders. With an explanation of how the champion will be the highest graded season-pass holder of the top 5 or something. It pretty much was confusing from the start, but non-holders never were in for winnings.
Yeah, that's how it was because I was sitting at my computer thinking that if Daz chose a non-season pass holder to win the contest, they would have a contest but not have to give out the in store credit unless they chose a season pass holder. So it was always there but, again, it was confusing the way it was written.
It made no sense with the original description as it essentially meant that non-SP users might essentially push out SP users from the top 5 but they can't really allow that as there's no incentive then for buying the season pass in relation to contests (1 day early access? lol). Which means if you're still mixing SP and non-SP users in the contest then you're "paying-to-win" SP users in the top 5 and creates an issue with fairness in judging. If they had stated that top 5 will always contain 3 SP users and 2 non-SP users for example, and actually had a lesser prize for non-SP users then it would have made sense.
What they've done with SP contests is what they should have done all along, makes a lot more sense, just like PC+ only contests. But changing the rules without any notice after people purchased already essentially nullifies the agreement if the end user decides they might actually want a refund (doubt anyone will).
Not sure how it negatively impacts those who already purchased it though?
The only group it affects are non SP holders, who obviously haven't purchased it.. so theres no agreement in place.. or am I missing something?
I'm pretty sure selecting a winner and not giving that winner the prize = big lawsuit.
Maybe it would be best if there was a separate Season Pass forum like the PC+ forum where Season Pass purchasers can talk about Season Pass contests and Season Pass discounts and other Season Pass stuff that doesn't concern us non-Season Pass people. Nothing good is coming from these discussions.
I'm going to jump in here and give a little bit of good news for the people who are rightly upset about this new direction.
I've been watching this thread since the release of Brooke, mainly checking in every morning for a good chuckle at the trainwreck, and it's become increasingly clear to me that the season pass is NOT going to continue, at least not in its present configuration. If I had to take my best guess, I'd say there will be two, maybe three, season passes before Daz quietly phases them out or overhauls them. The reason I believe this is that Brooke is a disaster, no matter what anybody says, and unless Daz releases four jaw dropping show stoppers with near universal appeal (which so many people have pointed out is nearly impossible) fewer people will buy the next season pass. And the downward spiral of the season passes will continue.
Now of course, I know people are going to attack me and defend Brooke, but there is a very simple litmus test for whether or not a Daz character is popular. It's called Deviant Art. It's where a lot of us go to post our artwork when we've finished, and despite the thousands of daz artists I follow on Deviant Art, I've seen just one image of Brooke. ONE. Now, maybe I'm just not watching the right artists, but I doubt that's the case. I think this character was a let down and no one is really all that excited for her. Of course, season pass holders are going to jump in and claim they love Brooke and couldn't be happier with the season pass, but most of these people are simply trying to justify their spending after the fact. The same thing happens when you buy a house or car you can't really afford, you mentally justify it by focusing exclusively on the positive and ignoring the negative, but that sort of mental gymnastics only goes so far. Sooner or later you realize you spent too much, or didn't get what you were looking for and you tell yourself not to make the same mistake twice.
And there is another way to know how well these season passes are being recieved. Daz was kind enough to put badges next to pass holder's names. And since I see very few (comparatively) badges in the forums, logic dictates that this pass was not nearly as well received as Daz would have liked for it to be. Please don't start with the fact that people can have the badges removed. I know that and have taken it into my calculations. And I still say there are very few who bought this. Less will buy the next pass and by the third season, someone at Daz is going to realize this isn't working and needs to go away or be overhauled.
And I'm not totally against a season pass, Daz. My vote is for the overhaul. Show us what we get for our money. Don't force us to blindly spend money on things we may not like or want and tell us we can't return them. It's incredibly underhanded and, as so many have pointed out, sleezy. Now, I'm not saying you good folks at Daz are being intentionally underhanded or sleezy. I'm sure you had the best intentions and you just didn't think it through. Hey, we all screw up from time to time. It's cool. You can course correct, or double down on your mistake. The choice is yours. On behalf of me and so many people in the community, we're hoping you course correct.
We had a goal when we started this and it has exceeded it. You can of course argue, well if we had done this and that we'd have sold even more..etc etc.. of course we are learning all the time, and feedback is always welcome to develop and improve the offerings.
But it does reinforce the fact that most people don't frequent the forums.
EXACTLY. Should have been handled privately amoung the Season Pass holders. Period.
To be perfectly honest Jack, I don't think that daz would admit if it didn't meet its goal.
Wouldn't it be rather hilariously amazing if a non-pass holder were to enter the contest with the best image, blowing everything away by leaps and bounds...and then sits there not winning like a pink elephant sitting in the corner of the room.
I'll try to make this less confusing. Here is a web.archive link to an earlier version of the Season Pass promo page on April 5th, claiming "Anyone (including non-Season Pass holders) can enter the contests, but due to your early access, you get a head start!" Here is the current version, stating "Contests exclusive to Season Pass holders"
As you can see, the wording has changed. The new version clearly states the contest is exclusive to Season Pass holders, and the rules on placing in the contest have changed too. The old version had clear rules regarding placing and winning in the contest: See "Runners-up will be awarded if other Season Pass holders finish in the top 5 of the contest." or "Examples: Champion Flair and store credit will be awarded to the highest-finishing Season Pass holder. For example, if the best Season Pass holder render finishes 2nd, that Season Pass holder will be awarded Champion Flair." These clearly state that the non-Season Pass entries can win the contest. No prizes, but the prestige of placing was still a possibility for those who still wanted to compete for fun.
Yes, people who have paid to win are unaffected by the change to a pure pay-to-win contest. If someone did hypothetically purchase Brooke on their own with the expectation they were allowed to compete in the contest, again because the rules clearly stated "Anyone (including non-Season Pass holders) can enter the contests," this would affect their ability to enter and win and the change does violate the agreement they thought they had with Daz, even if they didn't pay the necessary fee (SP subscription) to win prizes in the contest (they could still win first through fifth place). Most Brooke owners are probably SP folk anyway, so the overall "risk" of giving a non-SP first place with the prize going to a second place SP subscibers was probably relatively low, so the change in rules was unnecessary and achieved nothing beyond fostering ill-will in the userbase.
There is enough copy written on the potential for a non SP subscriber to enter and win that it does not appear to be an error they corrected, but a change in rules written after the fact to exclude non-SP people from entering.
More like hilariously tragic, but I agree with you completely.
I thought you meant "pay."
Would you know if Daz hadn't met their sales goals? And if you do actually know more about the SP sales than the contest, I'm curious whether anyone bought Gold. The price goes up significantly, while the value goes down.
I've seen a gold badge, so that's at least one!
I honestly hope they get their money's worth, but I'm so confused how anyone who wasn't willing to pay $150 or $200 dollars for five mystery characters, two mystery "freebies", and an early start to a contest exclusive rights to enter a contest, would pay that plus $20 more to get five characters (one known, four mystery), the contest, and ONE "freebie."
It's basically $40 dollars less in value than a Platinum subscription ($20 late join fee plus the $20 Sunrise Hangout is worth in the Daz store) - that's practically a core character's full-price cost.
I don't understand why anyone would enter a "contest" when you don't qualify to win. I see no problem with limiting to pass holders, it just makes sense if you pay the bucks you should get something exclusive for the buck spenders.
Perhaps you might just like your art displayed, that's cool, as long as you don't whine about not being able to win or not winning with your best in show artpiece.
if you want to play you have to pay. Simple enough. why all the angst?
Because it is not a sweepstakes, Daz can require what amounts to work done, an entry fee, etc. I think the current version of the rules is the way it should have been to begin with. Even so, if you look at the surrender of rights associated with entering, you might think twice about entering.
"By entering this content you understand that Daz 3D, anyone acting on behalf of Daz 3D, or its respective licensees, successors and assigns will have the right, where permitted by law, without any further notice, review or consent to print, publish, broadcast, distribute, and use, worldwide in any media now known or hereafter in perpetuity and throughout the World, your entry, including, without limitation, the entry and winner’s name, portrait, picture, voice, likeness, image or statements about the Contest, and biographical information as news, publicity or information and for trade, advertising, public relations and promotional purposes without any further compensation. "
...maybe there should be a separate Pass Holders Member Forum, like with a PC+ membership, which is not accessible to non pass holders where these challenges and other exclusive deals can announced and handled.
ETA: ach, Sevrin beat me to it.
Maybe they simply weren't there or didn't have the money when the Platinum Pass was sold?
Because that is a change in the way the contest is vs. the way it was originally presented. At this point, it's all sort of exhausting, though.